[No players] Big epic lurking - PB74

[Thoth]

Gavagai is playing an odd opening. WB first while growing so he can net Clams instead of building a Worker and farming the corn?
Looking at his screenshots he had time to build a worker, farm the riverside Corn and mine the grass hill with Bronze arriving about in time to start chopping out a settler or workboat.

If he grows to 3 before starting a settler he can build a warrior, accumulate ~20 hammers into a WB before starting settler t25. 5t production + 1 chop + 1t anarchy gives settler t32, wb t33 to settle his fish city and net the fish the turn it's founded ~t35-36 depending on roads which I don't think are techable in time but I'm not sure of Wheel cost on this map/mod.

[Mjmd]

I think a lot of people are being reminded you can't scout in a barb game like you do in a non. End turns on forests or hills or move 1 tile should be the general rule. I like not going super far away period. You want that scout alive to barb bust once human barbs start spawning, not dead or half a world away.

Also, more bananas in GTs thread. Come on all of the 4 lurkers for this game! Edit: Is he actually going to settle on the bananas first? That seems crazy to me.

[Mjmd]

Bets on how long until SD hates the map lol.

But yes this script produces much lusher land than a lot of random games recently.

[Mjmd]

I know I commented on Scooters start before, but ya I can confidently say he is better off than if this had been random. Before his capital was stronger and that was it. His current capital area was desert and by moving capital not only is that land now better, but he at least can contest land better. He also has an island that wasn't there before (he was originally the only neighbor of isolated France). So ya I didn't balance huts and island should have been bigger, but it could be worse!

Edit: BTW you can barely see coast from island bleeding in so he should know there is something more that way.

[Qgqqqqq]

SD likes the map lol

And yeah, this is a basic level of lushness. Recent games have been on scripts that are notoriously barren, so people have perhaps forgotten what normal looks like.

Is Commodore's river valley random? I remember strengthening his capital but I don't think the area outside was changed.

[Mjmd]

Ya his capital area was strengthened, but the rest was actually weakened. I mentioned to Q in discord, but his start was pinging for best land by quite a bit so I did things like make that big lake bigger so there are 10 more water tiles his direction than previously. I added a mountain range. I cut a few coastal tiles as well (although he gained an island, but its a 1 city and everyone has at least that). Due to adding copper he actually has 1 less wine and 1 less silk. If you go way back to the base map he was actually in the middle of the river system and Pin / Drelin were even further away so he probably could have grabbed more. Bings start down south was also much weaker / less land. So ya while Scooters isn't great, he got probably at least 2 more cities and is more competitive and even though Commodores land is still disgustingly good, its not as much at least. While rivers were added other places, none of the ones around him were added or modified. I love how there are a couple extremely long rivers just end in random 1 tile lakes.

Edit: as far as Plemos I remember mostly leaving alone although I think a couple of his deer got changed from tundra to plains (near copper and the one 4 west of his capital) and I think I moved the wheat to be more accessible also to said copper, so that start had a couple options that could also grab the dry cow, copper, plus 1 new food. But ya for the most part I didn't mess with how green an area was, maybe should have, but for the most part left the character of the map.

Edit: Edit: Plemo's island does have a fish, the map just doesn't show.

[Qgqqqqq]

I do think this emphasises my point from that big philosophical discussion on discord: if players see s map is altered, but not perfectly balanced, they'll complain until the cows come home. Whereas an unaltered, even somewhat more unbalanced, map means they have to play the hand they're dealt.

Comm and Scooter can tell their start is altered (though some of the things Scooter mentions like the oasis I don't believe actually changed) and so they have strong opinions about the end state- they're not comparing to some hypothetical more imbalanced version.

Personally, I still think the unaltered version of this would have been interesting, with one player on an island and so on, even if it would be unquestionably more unbalanced. But ah well.

[Mjmd]

I'm fine with the complaints. Lord knows I've complained about maps enough. While how much balancing was done is philosophical I think other than Commodore there was a general consensus for some editing and some people no doubt expected more editing than was done. I no doubt failed depending on viewpoint, but my hope is that it is a somewhat better game for it. While Scooter may still be screwed, he isn't as screwed. So while I maybe should have done more with his start, I still think that is better than being utterly screwed. That is my philosophy.

The oasis was there, but only because his starting area used to be desert and that piece of desert survived. I think you actually did the capital area and again I didn't mess with existing tiles very much except for resources or sinking / raising so I never messed with it.

[Mjmd]

Oh I changed all the incense on the map to plains. As a player I HATE desert incense. I almost never end up working the tile and certainly not early. I liked Tarkeel changing to plains in PB70 and did the same here.

[Qgqqqqq]

Mate, I don't think flipping every tile of a resource is at all in fitting with any sort of semi-random map

Oh well. You're probably right that revealed preferences > stated preferences.

My closest to that is I hate non-forested campable resources, especially jungle ivory.