American Politics Discussion Thread

[Mjmd]

So again, DEMOCRACIES AREN'T PERFECT. However, when an autocrat commits an atrocity there is about a 99% chance they get away with it. It says something we can discuss American atrocities without being jailed. We can try to be better. Your precious autocracies can't do that. I could point out all the times there has been accountability. Its not always the accountability we want or deserve and its not 100% of the time, but its better than an autocrat getting away with whatever they want whenever they want.

I have literally been arguing non stop about trying to hold Trump minimally accountable by keeping him from ever holding power again. Of voting against Republicans until they give up the mentality that to be part of their party you have to believe those lies. I don't know if we will succeed, but we have that chance.

[Mjmd]

Btw the Ukraine war is because an autocrat had dreams of grandeur and empire and because of massive corruption and system of politics where no one wanted to tell him the truth of army rediness his attack failed spectacularly in his 3 day war. Its actually an excellent example.

[greenline]

The opposite of accountability isn't corruption. The opposite of accountability is unaccountability - if the populace has no pressure with which to sway the government in response to their demands. A corrupt politician or corrupt system can be accountable or unaccountable.

I am not sure if Trump would be the most corrupt president in absolute terms. I do not think his personal kickbacks compare to Teapot Dome, or anything the Clinton family has been up to for the last few decades. I do not deny he has his fingers involved in graft. I deny that his personal graft warrants much mention. The current president has his scandal with his son being handed positions in Ukraine. And graft has been commonly a feature of public office ever since the industrial revolution took off, and party bosses became a feature of city politics.

The antidote to corruption is small, localized government managed by a citizenry with a shared sense of civic virtue - which you might even describe as asabiyyah. There are towns in America still that have these qualities. The antidote to corruption is not more immigration, compulsory voting, or climate measures designed to pack as many citizens as possible into cities that have been the most consistent sources of graft for the past two centuries. Citizens searching for accountability are not hoping for an end to graft, they are hoping their demands will be met, and accept that graft will always be a price of that.

[Mjmd]

I mean if you want to do a corruption example between the Biden family and the trump family you can compare how much moneyHunter got vs say A $2B Saudi investment. I'm not saying they both aren't bad, but they aren't equal. Donald Trump as one of his property value arguments recently said "I could find someone in Saudi Arabia to buy it for that price". As I wrote above, yes Hunter had some grey zone legal what I would consider tier 3 corruption. Trump had plenty of my tier 2 voting schme major corruption and even more tier 3, "minor".

[Mjmd]

I've been trying and failing to find a quote from a watchdog group that got posted when Biden chose his cabinet. Basically saying it was a lot better but a lot of the aides still had issues. But the quote was something like "better than Trump cannot be the new acceptable norm". It stuck with me. Its something people who feel strongly about Democrats should be aware of. Its why I believe primary voting is really important (and why I really want ranked choice voting).

[Charr Babies]

I think we've argued before Charr and you posted EXACTLY the same thing. As I pointed out then, Democracies aren't perfect. Accountability isn't always what we want it to be or should be. But do you know where accountability is in an autocracy? Ya its mainly the autocrat and sometimes his cronies. Its somewhat telling that without me posting any specific corruption indexes you just called ALL of them fake. You know what they will show. You haven't read a single bit of there methodology or data, but yet FAKE! Question that mind mentality.

After the examples (solid prove presented to you by American officials) I have given in my last post, it is no surprise I don't trust the sources you quote  - Just as you said you can't trust data coming out of China, without providing any proves. Yes, let us question that mind mentality.

No don't try to turn this around and ask for autocracy accountability, we are talking about your claim of accountability of democracies. Don't play the whataboutism card. 

I wonder if the dead care if they died to the hands of the so called Democracy. If the millions upon millions suffering from us atrocities around the globe care if we are democracy or autocracy. Stop hiding behind your So called Democracy and be human. 

You know which is the most authoritarian government is?  Be democratic and stop dictating how other nations govern themselves.

Most of the world knows the Ukraine war is about NATO expansion. But of course our great propaganda machine would have you believe otherwise. The war is about Cuban Missile Crisis. We were ready to go to war if the Soviet didn't back down. We couldn't have the Soviet come near us. The war is about North Korea. Why China, after the weaken state they were in after WWII, HAD TO go to war and kick our asses with sticks and stones. The war is about NATO (guess who calls the shots here) aggression crossing redlines. Ukraine is just a condom (discarded right after you fck with it) for us. Trump has said that the war would be over the next day he is elected. Exaggeration, but not by much.

This reminds me 

Long ago, for many years
White men came in the name of God
They took their land, they took their lives
A new age has just begun
They lost their Gods, they lost their smile
They cried for help for the last time.
Liberty was turning into chains
But all the white men said
That's the cross of changes

 

Boro
media constantly calling al-kaida offshoots in syria "moderate rebels"

Speaking of Syria. Bashar al-Assad went to the Hangzhou Asian Games with his heads of state, and his whole family. On a private Chinese C919 with a huge Chinese Flag painted on the side, escorted by fighter jets from 4 countries. What a show of force!  What a slap in the face!

[Boro]

Most of the world knows the Ukraine war is about NATO expansion.

...


Speaking of Syria. Bashar al-Assad went to the Hangzhou Asian Games with his heads of state, and his whole family. On a private Chinese C919 with a huge Chinese Flag painted on the side, escorted by fighter jets from 4 countries. What a show of force!  What a slap in the face!

Funny, I can't find a source for the fighter jets on president Assad's hangzhou visit that doesn't look like some machine-written piece.

Now for the crisis in ukraine, we hungarians of course know what exactly it is, and that it started with that Pyatt and "Fuck the EU" Nuland in 2013-14. They informally appointed Turchinov after a violent coup, and the new collaborator regime's first action was to screw over it's minorities, with a particular emphasis on russian-speakers, and responding to any protests against the coup, no matter how peaceful, with (official or "unofficial") violence.

And yes, there are hungarians in subcarpathia (the hungarian part of ukraine) who get dragged off the streets into a nonsensically short training and thrown into the meat grinder. For the rest the zelensky regime has been on the constant offensive to deny them their previously held rights to their language, despite respect for minority languages supposedly being a core part of the EU values, or respect for minorities being such a big deal for the democrat party.

who have consistently refused to criticize ukraine on this matter. Guess this is another pinochet moment.

By the way, did you farm charr hides for cheap gold back in the early days of Guild Wars?

[Charr Babies]

To be honest, I am not all that interested in politics. I am only here because the disinformation of foreign affairs is stupefying. I get my info as background noise while I am doing things. I do have the advantage of being tri-lingual so I look at clouds from both sides, 3D even    It's not an easy thing for me to dig up links (since I don't really pay attention), particularly one with English caption. So this is what I came up with from a quick search.

https://uwidata.com/31829-assads-visit-t...west-asia/

Assad’s plane was escorted by the “Asia Alliance”
The opening of the 2022 Beijing Winter Olympics was attended by Russian President Putin. At this year’s Asian Games in China, Syrian President Bashar al-Assad was the guest of honor. In between the two giant athletic events, it should be recalled that earlier this year, Beijing also marked the resumption of diplomatic relations between Iran and Saudi Arabia, which had been suspended for 7 years, marking the beginning of a new era in West Asia. It is also worth noting that the sports competitions in China provide a platform for the ‘new type of diplomacy’ of the rising Asian civilization.

Even the fighter jets of the countries in the region that escorted Assad’s plane after his return from China show the emerging picture of alliances. On its way back, the plane carrying Bashar al-Assad and his wife entered Pakistani airspace, where it was escorted to Karachi by Pakistani J-10 fighter jets. After leaving Pakistani airspace, Assad’s plane headed towards the Arabian Sea, where Iran sent fighter jets to escort the take-off and flight in the direction of the Persian Gulf. Saudi Arabian warplanes then escorted Assad’s private plane to the Jordanian border and finally Russian warplanes escorted the private plane into Syrian airspace, allowing Assad to land safely at Damascus Airport. China, Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Russia… formed an “air defense alliance” to ensure the safe return of the Syrian leader to Damascus during his almost 6,000-kilometer flight from one end of Asia to the other.

Also https://inf.news/en/world/91ba6c158ce241...5a87d.html
There are enough sources on google with the search term "assad jets escort asian games", and filter out what is the base truth.

Charr Babies is my pre-searing toon trying to get the Defender of Ascalon title, which I still take out once in awhile for a moment of calm  relaxation - Baby toon killing baby charrs

[Mjmd]

Fair enough, lets do some examples of democracy accountability. So a good example is that in democracies there questioning of officials by non state media. There are open records laws. If we think a leader is doing a bad job we can get rid of them. An autocracy CAN'T do that. Trump is an excellent example. How the heck he won the first time is an open question, but we then got to kick him out. In 2021 there was a special election in Georgie. Now usually Republicans have advantage in special elections because less people vote. Also, its Georgie so there is major voter suppression. However, both Republican senators has some mild corruption going on and Trumps Georgia phone call trying to "find" votes had just come out. And we got two Democrat senators. In a Republican state. Through the hard work of a lot of people. Don't tell me voting doesn't work or you can't change things by working at it. It doesn't always work BUT it can. I can go on. I've given other historical examples.

The thing is Russia doesn't have to worry about NATO. Its a defensive alliance. That lie is pitiful obvious now. If NATO wanted to destroy Russian army and make Ukraine an instant member they've had months of Russian army being bogged down in foreign territory. It would be so easy to finish them off. There is resistence to adding Ukraine to NATO even NOW because it would mean NATO would have to go to war with Russia. NATO has a / could gain a casus belli and still isn't doing it..... Ukraine is about spheres of influence. Russia thinks its theirs. However, it belongs to the Ukrainians. They made that clear in 2014 when they got themselves a more accountable democratic government. Now they are fighting to keep it. Do you doubt what would happen to their democracy if Russia took over?

[greenline]

In an autocracy, there is no legal mechanism for removing the autocrat.

In a representational democracy completely overtaken by oligarchic and academic NGOs, there is no legal method for removing the NGOs or the civil service or...

There is no perfectly accountable government. But there are many forms of a perfectly unaccountable government.