Dreadnaught to defeat the Guardian

[utwig]

I remember reading a question somewhere whether it is possible to build a single Dreadnought ship capable of defeating the Guardian of Orion.

I selected Mrrshans for their superior gunnery and played on Easy (on harder it would take more future techs). All techs except weapon are Future Techs, I didn't have Mauler Devices and I think Tri Focus Plasma should be good for defeating shields. Generally Guardian is more vulnerable to shield halving weapons.

For some reason I cannot upload attachments so I'll just post the specs of the ship:

Computer MARK X
Shield CLASS XV
ECM NA

Armor NEUTRONIUM (2400 HP)
Engine INTERPHASED (WARP 8 DEF 7)
Maneuver 8 COMBAT SPEED 5

Weapon 19 + 19 + 19 + 18 TRI-FOCUS PLASMA 20-50

Special 1 BATTLE SCANNER
Special 2 HIGH ENERGY FOCUS

COST 4994 BC

On turn one of the battle ship withstood and guardian was down to 1382/4000 HP on turn two, the guardian has been defeated.

[RefSteel]

Cool to see this done again!  The Impossible Guardian hits harder and can absorb more damage, but you're definitely right that even that is just a question of getting more Advanced Tech, as PsillyCyber once demonstrated!  The minimum tech level at which it could be reliably done is an interesting question but probably not one I'd have the patience to test (and subject to different subjective definitions of "reliably").  I'd imagine Mrrshans are indeed the best choice for their targeting abilities, though other races might still get to the necessary tech level in a shorter time in spite of presumably needing more tech to get the job done. This is one of the little things I love about Orion: Yes, there are legendary Ancients who wielded Amazing Technology, but their technological prowess isn't an Impossible Ideal never to be equaled or surpassed in the modern galaxy. With time and research and good engineering, we can come up with designs that puts theirs to shame!

[utwig]

On impossible with Meklars it took 4 x 43 Mauler device Dreadnought. All techs level IV. Neutronium armor, hyper drives and high energy focus. Neutronium is enough to survive one attack but you need to destroy half of Guardian's HP per attack. Level III 4 x 34 Dreadnought is insufficient.

Maxed Maulers divided by 4 slots do more damage to Guardian than tri-focus plasma for the same tech level and hull size.

It might be done on lower tech level. I picked Meklars because I have yet to win an impossible with Mrrshans. I play small galaxies and the couple of times when I managed to gain the upper hand everyone voted for my opponent. Sending colonists on a trip during the vote hasn't helped since one rival was more popular than other and they still voted for him. With patch the rivals tend to hate player more.

[RefSteel]

Wow - cool! Do you remember what the tech levels were? (If I'm remembering correctly, Advanced Tech 4 might bring you to something in the 70s or 80s or conceivably even the 90s, depending on your tree in each field and what you got from the AIs along the way.)

Also, losing a vote when you aren't nominated sounds like some really bad luck! You only need barely more than a third of the population between you and the second-most-populous AI combined to survive the vote no matter what the others do....

[utwig]

Tech level IV

[luddite]

I got it on impossible! Here's what I had:

roughly 1 or 2 advanced techs for all technologies

Neutronium 2 armor, automated repair (i didn't have advanced damage control, that would have helped a lot)
Hyperthrust engines, maneuver 9, internial nullifer
computer XI, shield XV
30 stellar converters, 1 stinger missile (turned off)

With the stellar converters and high speed you can continuously move up, fire, and move back, while also dodging the plasma torpedoes. The guardian is stupid and will stay firing at long range where it can't hit you very well and can't use its death ray. I was able to avoid enough damage that my automated repair out-healed it, while slowly wearing it down with stellar converters.

[luddite]

I got it on impossible! Here's what I had:

roughly 1 or 2 advanced techs for all technologies

Neutronium 2 armor, automated repair (i didn't have advanced damage control, that would have helped a lot)
Hyperthrust engines, maneuver 9, internial nullifer
computer XI, shield XV
30 stellar converters, 1 stinger missile (turned off)

With the stellar converters and high speed you can continuously move up, fire, and move back, while also dodging the plasma torpedoes. The guardian is stupid and will stay firing at long range where it can't hit you very well and can't use its death ray. I was able to avoid enough damage that my automated repair out-healed it, while slowly wearing it down with stellar converters.

I tried again with a few more variations on this.

Basically I don't think the weapon matters much, with this approach. I did it with stellar converters, mauler devices, plasma torpedoes, and particle beams. Doesn't matter as long as you can punch through the shields. It's all about the high-speed, high-defense, auto-repair combo. With that and some basic maneuvers, you're pretty much invincible against the guardian. Cloaking device also helps, it lets you take a turn to repair whenever you get in trouble.

However, I really did need the maximum possible beam defense- max speed and inertial nullifier. Otherwise the guardian just does too much damage. Maybe the Alkari could do it with lower technology? The Displacement device would probably help a lot, too. Most of the offensive specials don't work on the guardian, though.

edit: this is with the GOG version, 1.3 patch. apparently that's bugged so that the impossible-level Guardian is lacking Advanced Damage Control? Obviously this would be much harder if the guardian was healing itself for 3000 HP each turn.

[RefSteel]

Whoa - cool! I love that it's possible either to kill the Guardian fast enough or to survive reliably through a long battle and wear it down!

this is with the GOG version, 1.3 patch. apparently that's bugged so that the impossible-level Guardian is lacking Advanced Damage Control? Obviously this would be much harder if the guardian was healing itself for 3000 HP each turn.

Note the Guardian's ADC is nonfunctional under kyrub's patch too. Presumably some versions of 1oom have it working; I wonder if it relates to the Guardian's immunity to most Special systems.

Roughly 1 or 2 advanced techs for all technologies

Tech level IV

I was curious about the precise miniaturization levels if you happen to know; no worries if you don't though, obviously! These are the ones I mean:




The "Tech Levels" the game uses to determine miniaturization are boxed in white, with the most important ones for cramming lots of guns on boxed in light green. These tech levels depend on both your highest level current tech and the total number of techs you've researched in the field. So depending on how full your tree was and how much you took from AIs, Advanced Tech IV could mean (in theory, but probably never in practice) a Tech Level as low as 66 - or could max it out at 99! (In fact, in the Weapons tree, it's theoretically possible to max out Tech Level with Advanced Weapons Tech II if I'm remembering correctly!) Once you hit TL99 in a field, you get to research one last (and completely meaningless) Advanced Technology, and then won't be given an option to research anything else in the field. (This rarely comes up, of course!)

[luddite]

Ah, cool, I didn't realize that miniaturization worked like that. I did have quite a few captured/stolen techs from the others. Here's what I had at the end:



So pretty high in construction and weapons, I guess, but not too high in propulsion.

I definitely think it could be done at a lower tech level. Since you don't need a lot of weapons doing it this way, you just need enough to kill it before the turn limit runs out. I wasn't really trying to minimize the tech level here- that might make for an interesting challenge!

[RefSteel]

Wow - that's still impressive to me, beating the Guardian with a single ship whose tech levels average in the sixties (admittedly the two ~most relevant in the 70s, but Propulsion for power miniaturization is below 60!) - obviously it took good ship design and tactics in this case, with the way you described the fight. Well played!