[PB73 SPOILERS] scooter's Oracle

[scooter]

Destroyer have a movement of 8 already. Even galeons get only + 25%.

An addendum on this specific point... It's important to not measure movement relative to other naval boats. Instead, you should be asking what you can hit from the fog with a given range. For example, 2 movement means you cannot hit a city with popped borders from the fog except for a couple specific and uncommon situations. 3 movement means you sometimes can from specific spots, and 4 movement means you pretty much always can. Then post-Optics this all resets, because borders can see +1 over water, and many key cities are getting their 3rd or even 4th border pop by then. At that point you often cannot even hit from the fog with a 4-5 move unit. In this case I wanted to hit Oxy's capital, and I had at my disposal an 8-mover and there was just one single tile where that was possible from!


So a Galleon going from 4 -> 5 movement might be +25% movement, but we're trying to measure impact instead. I think the impact is definitely more than 25%. Oxy has had way more boats than me this entire war, and yet it was me with the biggest hit of the war. When you know an opponent can hit an area from the fog, it's hellish trying to defend. You aren't just defending against what you can see, but you're also defending against what you and your opponent can imagine. I feel pretty bad for Oxy honestly because it might have been sort of difficult for him to imagine me doing this. He's got his hands full trying an invasion against a player that is able to exploit mobility to make it difficult, and he also has to imagine that I might pull some BS with a Galleon that can move twice as fast as they're supposed to be able to move, and that one will get parked on the one and only tile on this whole map that can devastate him like this? It's a tough ask.

[Mjmd]

I think the general point Scooter made about visibility is the important one. I feel like we don't talk about visibility enough with multiplayer warfare, but its absolutely one of the most essential things. More movement is always good on a battlefield, but movement combined with visibility or against the lack of it is often key.

[T-hawk]

In this case I wanted to hit Oxy's capital, and I had at my disposal an 8-mover and there was just one single tile where that was possible from!

Tiny nitpick, there were two such tiles, 1E of your starting tile also would have worked. The first move going either S from the tile you used or SW from the other one would have been to the same 7-away spot. (Although your choice was correct, it was a bit further away to be seen from any potential coastal boat on that next island over.)

[Jabah]

While if a scout was (hidding or not) on the iceland, he might have seen the boat (probably equaly from both place)

[Tarkeel]

CHM can be quite useful too as it means Theocracy + Vassalage == Nav2 boats out of the gate to really go the naval mobility route.

I agree with most everything you say, but this is wrong. CHA is much better for Spain's citadel; Vikings can get Nav2 with just Theocracy or Vassalage; Don't need to stack and don't need discount since Nav2 only requires Nav1.

[scooter]

In this case I wanted to hit Oxy's capital, and I had at my disposal an 8-mover and there was just one single tile where that was possible from!

Tiny nitpick, there were two such tiles, 1E of your starting tile also would have worked. The first move going either S from the tile you used or SW from the other one would have been to the same 7-away spot. (Although your choice was correct, it was a bit further away to be seen from any potential coastal boat on that next island over.)

Oh yeah, good catch! I do remember noticing this ages ago now that you mention it and ultimately deciding this tile was preferable, and then over time I simply forgot about the second option.

CHM can be quite useful too as it means Theocracy + Vassalage == Nav2 boats out of the gate to really go the naval mobility route.

I agree with most everything you say, but this is wrong. CHA is much better for Spain's citadel; Vikings can get Nav2 with just Theocracy or Vassalage; Don't need to stack and don't need discount since Nav2 only requires Nav1.

This isn't accurate, or at least it's not in Vanilla BtS. I've not had Nav2 really all game for this reason - Nav1 requires Flanking1, and Nav2 seems to quietly require this as well even though officially it only requires Nav1.

[Tarkeel]

Ok that's interesting. Will have to dig into that.

[T-hawk]

I believe the Flanking requirement was added to Nav2 in BTS specifically to stop the Vikings from jumping directly there.

[scooter]

I believe the Flanking requirement was added to Nav2 in BTS specifically to stop the Vikings from jumping directly there.

Oh interesting. I have not actually found this requirement documented anywhere and I did go look briefly once. It had me thinking that promotions require their prereq's prereqs if you follow, but this explanation would make more sense.

[T-hawk]

Yeah, it's not easy to find changes that came out with an expansion, as opposed to being documented in one of the specific patch logs. I'm traveling away from my Civ computer this week, but I think the installation should have the XML files for both vanilla and BTS, so someone could look there if they want.

(Side note, I've been playing a board game Beyond the Sun lately, so the BTS acronym keeps throwing me off )