American Politics Discussion Thread

[greenline]

You genuinely think that someone who builds a fence is somehow responsible for if someone else decides to climb it and tear their skin open, so forgive me for lacking the interest for discussing the dismal science with you.

[Mjmd]

I don't have facts or argument so I'm going to attack someone for caring about human life???

You do realize that is a very odd ad hominem.

[greenline]

I'll just repeat my original statement on the matter, which you obviously did not spare a glance.

I do not think suicides are something to celebrate. I also think the fault of suicides is generally on the person who choses to kill themselves, and not the builders of razor wire or tall buildings.

If you want to read and process what I say, I'll reconsider.

[Mjmd]

You are attempting to change the subject. You don't have facts or logic against the economic benefits so you are changing the subject.

That being said. Whats the most desperate you've been in your life? People WILL risk anything especially for their children. Its not suicide, its desperation. Its murder knowing desperate people will try. You are judging people whos stories you know NOTHING about. I don't either, but I know some empathy is due.

[greenline]

The vast majority of your posts here have been shrill emotional appeals telling people to worship democracy and calling people traitors for disagreeing.

I have spent very little time here judging the migrants for wanting to move. The judgment I am offering is just on the fence builders. They are not guilty of murder for building a fence. No murder was committed when someone tried to climb razor wire. Suicide is sad when it happens. I do not think it is a good idea to stop building tall buildings or fences just to prevent a few suicides.

[Mjmd]

I tend to stick to logic. If calling someone who wants the current government overthrown a traitor isn't logical, please explain. Again, I've given historical examples that were worse that did not result in government overthrow, so that is your logical bar to try to prove.

You are still avoiding actually discussing the economic argument on immigrants. That is your stated reason for not wanting them. Defend it?

[greenline]

A true student of logic would recognize quickly that logic principally applies to equations with clear, discrete values. In economics these values are murky by default because the methods of collecting them are much more prone to error, and the matters of politics doubly so. If you want a logical reason to overthrow a government, there isn't one. There isn't a logical reason not to overthrow one either, because trying to apply logic in this matter is simply misunderstanding the type of problem that is occuring.

I have made several arguments against immigrants not relating to economics. Here is one that does relate to this matter. Immigrants are a downward pressure on wages because they artificially raise competition for labor. This can result in downward pressure on prices of goods then sold by the companies employing them, and this is a commonly stated benefit of why one should continue letting them in forever. However, the native citizens losing out on jobs and seeing a downward pressure on their income will need money from somewhere to buy these goods even at a reduced price. In practice, this is continually provided either through make work jobs that parasitize the economy, or via debt. Both of these cures involving immigration are worse than the disease, which would be better resolved by letting the markets determine a practical wage for native workers.

[Mjmd]

So the fact you can change a policy via voting gives a higher bar for overthrowing a Democracy. Make sense?

So low population leads to high wages? No. Economic activity leads to high wages. This doesn't have to be because of a large population, but it helps. Again, you can see high pop low cost countries growing wages as economic activity increases. We have a huge advantage as a developed economy because we are past the middle income trap. Back on page 347 (which I linked and I doubt you read) I went through this. There are multiple economic examples of this. And there are examples of economies leveling out because of demographic issues (which immigrants help fix). You also have to factor in would there be jobs without them? Again, I gave an example of my wife who maybe could be earning more, but could also be unemployed because both of her jobs probably wouldn't exist without immigrants. Yes that is hard to quantify. However, those jobs are definitely good for anyone with an education because they support multiple managerial and support within the company. And then we've talked about all the higher education support services on top of those). So again, if you are lower income / education and don't have empathy I could understand feeling this way even if economic theory is there for the country, you may have been impacted negatively (or positively in case of my wife). But as the US is an advanced economy with a high education level it makes 100% sense from a nation point of view.

[greenline]

The US currently spends some of the highest amount of money on education per capita and produces graduates with worse schooling than it did 60 years ago.

Much of the currently available work that uses the higher degrees of education is ultimately make-work or political work that produces nothing of value, or actively takes value from people who do produce valuable goods or services.

If one was some kind of Civ god king, they would be adjusting sliders to fix the root causes of low productivity growth rather than perennially trying to pass the buck with immigration and creating more issues in the long term. But there is no Civ god king in charge, and the primary goal of immigration has always been to produce and enlarge a voter base that will always support progressive causes no matter what.

[Mjmd]

I mean I won't argue need to look at education, but that isn't what we are discussing. Higher education is a cornerstone of an advanced economy and keeping those graduates employed is important. See China youth unemployment rate. I personally am very thankful there are more companies not less that need me. I've lost my job twice and both times have been able to get a pay raise and a new job in the great economic powerhouse that is the Milwaukee area..... I'm currently noodling switching jobs voluntarily this time and am glad there are options. I want more companies to be created and grow in America. My wife who doesn't have an education had trouble breaking into the higher paying manufacturing jobs, and was only able to because of a company who employed 90% immigrants / children of to make their product.

So companies are out to make money. Now companies make stupid decisions all the time. But if they are purchasing a service, they think it is going to make them more money.

In general land, labor, and capital are key factors to an economy. Labor both in numbers and education. Capital isn't just $$$ but anything that helps make a worker more productive. The US has some of the highest productive workers. Not because we work the most, but because of a lot of the activity you seem not to appreciate.

Again, Republicans could probably flip most of the voters if they wanted to. A lot of immigrants are catholic and tend to lean more conservative. They would have to stop fear mongering though and that would cost them votes elsewhere. And again, there are really good NON moral economic reasons for a country to want immigrants.