[SPOILERS] scooter Reruns Bluey

[scooter]

I dunno, if there's some water this kinda looks like a Vikings angle to me.




If this is the first spoiler thread you've clicked on and you're interested in spitballing leader/civ ideas before spoiling yourself, let me know. I have a few thoughts percolating.

[scooter]

First, theme. There's a small part of me tempted to rerun the Bluey Episode naming scheme from PB74, as I think it's a real shame that such a great naming scheme got lost to a game I was so disinterested in playing, let alone reporting. So I'm definitely considering that.


However, I also really want to name cities after players on Michigan's college football championship team, as this team and season was maybe my favorite sports thing ever. It's a tough call.


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Anyway just some mild brain-storming here to start. Let's start with important considerations.


* Every city starts with a Granary, and if coastal a Lighthouse. This devalues Expansive massively and Organized a fair amount. You do get some of the hammers back in the settler costs which is a very weird quirk, but that doesn't offset the devaluation that much. For Expansive this is a death knell. Organized has a lot else going for it though, so maybe it warrants some borderline consideration.


* Settlers are around 50% more expensive. This makes producing them quite difficult. This makes Imperialistic really strong, and it's already pretty solid in CtH.


* Guilds is very close by, which of course means Knights. You may be familiar with a(n in)famous UU.


* Given that we're jump-started into the future, that nerfs cottages and boosts workshops. This also boosts the value of bulbs, and by extension PHI.


* Wonders available on T0: Great Library, Hanging Gardens, Colossus, Chichen Itza, MoM, and Schwe Paya. Everything else from earlier eras is not buildable.


* The tech tree looks like this:







* There are 3 Labor civics available on T0. Obviously anyone can revolt on T0, but the fact that all 3 are up right here boosts Spiritual quite a bit.




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Some super casual Civ spitballing


* Yes Byzantines are just straight-up the best civ here. I think they probably should be banned, and failing that, rushed.


* My first post about the Vikings was kind of a joke, but also they would be very good if there's serious water visible. I don't expect to play them yet again, but uh, I think my forum status as The Viking Guy requires me to mention them.


* Mongols are fairly interesting. First off, if someone is close by, they are a legitimate rush option. However, in what I'd anticipate to be a Knight-focused game, the Ger is a nice way to get some extra XP. Barracks + Ger + Theo + Vassalage == 11xp. If you want triple promo Knights everywhere, your options are basically Mongols or Charismatic, and I think the opportunity cost of Mongolia is lower.


* America is really strong here thanks to a top-tier UB in a setup where great people I think are stronger.


* I suspect CtH Germany is really good.


* HRE is a very low-key interesting pick with a versatile UU you'd unlock early that you'd want to build anyway for Knight/Phract considerations, plus a UB that is buildable T0. Neither of these really blow me away individually, but together they're useful things you don't have to wait for.


* Dutch are worth considering I think




Finally, rapid-fire trait implications.


Aggressive: is a very bad trait

Expansive: probably also very bad

Protective: probably also very bad

Creative: probably also very bad

Charismatic: probably kinda bad, though Age of Knights does help a little

Financial: I don't think cottage spam is the right way to play Medieval? Free Lighthouses and CtH Bank bonus help make it viable though.

Organized: Lighthouse bonus less useful, but also Medieval means skipping the turns where the trait is weakest and possibly making Factories relevant later.

Industrious: Now we're getting to the good stuff

Philosophical: Bulbs are very powerful here and will largely determine many of the big first-to bonuses, not to mention faster Bureaucracy is possible.

Spiritual: Medieval is when Spiritual comes online - it's very strong.

Imperialistic: Will get you to 7 cities before some non-Imp get to 5. It's good, though not necessarily a must-pick.

[Zed-F]

So, suppose you win the snake pick and get your choice of position. What do you prioritize?

[Dreylin]

First, theme. There's a small part of me tempted to rerun the Bluey Episode naming scheme from PB74, as I think it's a real shame that such a great naming scheme got lost to a game I was so disinterested in playing, let alone reporting. So I'm definitely considering that.

Darth Vader Voice: Join the Recycling side!

[Tarkeel]

First, theme. There's a small part of me tempted to rerun the Bluey Episode naming scheme from PB74, as I think it's a real shame that such a great naming scheme got lost to a game I was so disinterested in playing, let alone reporting. So I'm definitely considering that.

I might steal that one for myself.

You do present some reasoning as for why EXP is bad, but none for why AGG/PRO/CRE are, and I'm interesting in hearing your thoughts.

[scooter]

You do present some reasoning as for why EXP is bad, but none for why AGG/PRO/CRE are, and I'm interesting in hearing your thoughts.

I was definitely being a little glib and quick intentionally, but I think the easiest way to explain those ones is to say I don’t really see much of an affirmative case to pick any of them. Aggressive is just bad even as CtH did its best to improve it. When’s the last time someone picked the trait on purpose and won a meaningful game? And now we’re going to drop the trait into an era that will be 2-mover dominated? I don’t see any purpose in picking it. PRO is underwhelming at best. I don’t think the domestic trade bonus is much of a bonus in a world where I expect international trade to happen earlier than Ancient, and there’s not really much additional benefit other than I guess buffing Longbows. Meh. Finally, CRE is just straight-up worse in Medieval vs Ancient, and it’s already nothing special in Ancient. There’s so many ways to pop borders here - Monuments are available on T0 as are Libraries, everyone’s going to start with a religion, SPI can pop into Caste, PHI has cheap monasteries, etc. Popping borders will not be hard.


Basically the traits I ruled out are a mish-mash between “worse on Medieval than Ancient” and/or “already not good and not helped here.” I think Imp/Phi/Spi in particular are massively buffed in Medieval, while Org/Ind are interesting in that some parts are better, some worse.

[Mjmd]

I mean Plemo did do pretty well in PB66 with Toku.

[aetryn]

If you don't expect too much cottaging, does that lead to a slow science pace outside of bulbing? Is there going to be an extra-long medieval period during expansion vs a normal game? Higher or lower chance that this goes all the way to the modern era compared to an Ancient start? (Personally, I'd probably guess lower as the good players here have a lot of experience not losing Ancient Era starts, whereas there may be hidden pitfalls in a Medieval start that ends up with the game going out of balance sooner).

Either America UB or maybe bulbing to the German UU paired with PHI in a format where PHI is stronger and the bulbing affects more immediate sounds like a very interesting play.

[greenline]

The unit saving benefit from CtH Agg needs a truly gnarly level of units built to compare to actual econ traits like ORG, PRO, or FIN, something like 1000+ lategame deathstacks with nukes. To get the most value out of the trait you need to prioritize Philosophy to get the most out of Pacifism in the midgame, and preferably bully people early game to get the most out of your free promotions. Of course player skill and land and neighbor luck trumps these bonuses, as the german forum has people winning with leaders like unmodded PRO/IMP.

[scooter]

I mean Plemo did do pretty well in PB66 with Toku.

Ok but context is required there. He had the last (12th) leader choice, so 11 were already off the board. In addition, he had picked Rome, so obviously that’s a case where Aggressive makes a bit more sense, so he mostly just took what was probably the best Aggressive leader on the board. Rome is just about the only Civ where I’d be ok with taking Aggressive as getting Praets to the 2nd promo is a serious breakpoint, and backing it up with ORG makes a ton of sense. But let’s be real, it was the icing on Rome’s cake there. There was a reason the leader was picked dead last instead of first.

The unit saving benefit from CtH Agg needs a truly gnarly level of units built to compare to actual econ traits like ORG, PRO, or FIN, something like 1000+ lategame deathstacks with nukes. To get the most value out of the trait you need to prioritize Philosophy to get the most out of Pacifism in the midgame, and preferably bully people early game to get the most out of your free promotions. Of course player skill and land and neighbor luck trumps these bonuses, as the german forum has people winning with leaders like unmodded PRO/IMP.

Pretty much agreed with this, yeah. I will always prefer to have 1-2 more cities/techs from other traits anyway.

If you don't expect too much cottaging, does that lead to a slow science pace outside of bulbing? Is there going to be an extra-long medieval period during expansion vs a normal game? Higher or lower chance that this goes all the way to the modern era compared to an Ancient start? (Personally, I'd probably guess lower as the good players here have a lot of experience not losing Ancient Era starts, whereas there may be hidden pitfalls in a Medieval start that ends up with the game going out of balance sooner).

Either America UB or maybe bulbing to the German UU paired with PHI in a format where PHI is stronger and the bulbing affects more immediate sounds like a very interesting play.

I don’t think this game will go super late. In general, unfamiliar starts result in high variance games. High variance in a field of 5 means 2-3 of us are gonna be more or less out of contention in under 100T. There’s just too many ways to ruin your game or get your game ruined in this setup.

So yeah, I don’t expect a ton of teching into the late game, but it will matter. I sort of suspect a good way to play this is to have a cottage spam Bureaucap with an Academy do most of your teching and workshop the rest, but I’m definitely not certain right now. In general though maximizing some first-to bonuses will matter more than raw beakers.