American Politics Discussion Thread

[Mjmd]

Sorry I might be confused. Yes there have been assisnation attempts but you were equating government actions to private citizen actions.

Same thing with the social media companies. There is a vast difference between a company choosing to do something and a government.

This is called the equality fallacy. I don't defend the bad things the US has done because yes they are bad. But you seem to want to say that countries should be rushing to align themselves with countries who do worse.

[Charr Babies]

Sorry I might be confused. Yes there have been assisnation attempts but you were equating government actions to private citizen actions.

Same thing with the social media companies. There is a vast difference between a company choosing to do something and a government.

This is called the equality fallacy. I don't defend the bad things the US has done because yes they are bad. But you seem to want to say that countries should be rushing to align themselves with countries who do worse.

That's a tough sell that there were absolute no governmental intervention in such a long list

I mean, it is on record (somewhere on youtube) some politicians called for Snowden's assassination, either explicitly or implicitly, .

If I am living under the Russian propaganda machine, I would believe 100% of them were covert operations. See how that goes?

No, no, no more fallacy theories BS. I've never excuse them for whatever you accuse them of doing.  JUST ME CALLING YOU OUT ON YOUR DOUBLE STANDARDS, YOUR HYPOCRISY

[Mjmd]

So now you want me to prove non existence? Sigh.

I'm going to ignore the red herring.

Saying you can't call me out on my illogical arguments isn't good argument. I've never excused what the US has done or is doing. I believe this argument started with Ukraine and russia trying to justify invasion and you diverted it to US bad (as you typically do). That is also a logical fallacy. Try staying on subject next time please. It gets tiring rehashing.

[Charr Babies]

So now you want me to prove non existence? Sigh.

I'm going to ignore the red herring.

Saying you can't call me out on my illogical arguments isn't good argument. I've never excused what the US has done or is doing. I believe this argument started with Ukraine and russia trying to justify invasion and you diverted it to US bad (as you typically do). That is also a logical fallacy. Try staying on subject next time please. It gets tiring rehashing.

No strawman, I never ask you to prove anything here. I said it is a tough sell. The odds are not looking good.

LoL with your fallacy bs again. Let me quote that again. there is a question in it you are avoiding.

Oh I know, just call it yadi yada fallacy, so you don't have to answer

Such hypocrisy. You know, most of your sound bites are not wrong but the problem is your double standards. You deem American expansion in Europe is a good thing and yet we shit our pants and ready to start a nuclear war when Russia wanted to move a few nukes to Cuba. What will we do if Russia and China start building military bases in South America - to encircle the enemy as you so proudly speak of us military bases?

Just admit your prejudice and move on.

[Mjmd]

So let me explain why Snowden is a Red Herring. The argument started with justification for Russian invasion of Ukraine. You then tried distracting with "America bad". To prove "America bad" you are now on Snowden. You see how that has nothing to do with Russian justification for invasion of Ukraine? Could I show an equality fallacy between that case and things Russia has done. Sure. Its not productive though and has nothing to do with the original argument. I would definitely categorize more as a red herring that straw man although those two do overlap often.

I've NEVER stated America hasn't done bad things or isn't flawed. EVER. There is no hypocrisy. And by "American expansion in Europe" you mean countries willingly joining a defensive alliance, then yes I prefer that to forceful invasion. That is my central argument. I was merely pointing out this choice and you seemed to take that as a signal to go down the "America bad" routine. And again I'm not saying we aren't. But countries are willingly choosing to be aligned with us, so the lesser of two evils. Not great, we should do better, but still better than being the worse of two evils.

[Charr Babies]

know that arresting political dissidents and curtailing free speech is bad.

Snowden is not a red herring. He is one of those you referred to. Sure I only listed potus initially and not the whistleblowers, but they are very much part of the deal.

LoL at "choosing to be aligned with us, so the lesser of two evils" Sorry, I can't help to make this into a joke. Last election, the lesser of the two evils had a pretty close race. Great democracy, we can choose between dumb and dumber.

I really think you should study fallacies a bit more before you fling them around like a mad man. But, never mind all these fallacy stuff.

Lets pretend you wiggled out of answering by all these fallacy red herring. Lets stop comparing one country to another

Brand new topic below.

[Charr Babies]

What should USA do if Russia and/or China is pushing to install military bases, with nukes, to surround the US?

[Mjmd]

Should he receive a pardon, yes. Will he get due process and a trial if he ever came back to US, yes. Its bad BUT STILL different than never getting them a trial, or them falling out a window. If I go out and protest against my government I can do that. No one is going to come arrest you for saying America bad. There were 400 recently detained in Russia just for paying respects to Navalny. 5000 for an anti war protest. I can go on. The numbers and reasons for doing so are MUCH more extensive. This is why I said it was an easy equality fail.

I will gladly the lessor two evils every time.

Never mind you keep stepping in fallacies. Saying ignore them isn't a very good argument.


Does it matter? With current technology China or Russia can destroy us without nukes being next door. Russia moving nukes to Belarus, just for the press. Did NATO invade Belarus? NO. There isn't any strategic difference. Recently the US said it would stop a nuclear armed sub in South Korea. Actually LESS deterrence and less safe for the sub, but its mainly so the South Korea people don't demand their own nuclear program. I'm not saying we would do nothing, but even back when technology mattered we didn't invade Cuba. Russia invaded Ukraine because they were leaning west. They were losing influence. Because Putin wanted to show Russia was strong and regain Russian territory and prestige. There was no danger of NATO attacking Russia (now would be an excellent time to do so if NATO really wanted to). There was very little chance of nukes going in. We don't currently have any in any of the former eastern block. In fact the number and locations in Europe has been dropping through nuclear treaties. Something the US has historically thankfully been very ok doing. So ya if you look at literally the last 30 years history your justification doesn't hold water. If Putin wanted to defang NATO the best thing he could have done was to just keep doing nothing. Russia would have been in no more danger and at least would have kept influence elsewhere.

[Charr Babies]

Today, U.S. tactical nuclear weapons remain at six bases in five NATO member countries: Belgium, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, and Turkey. The UK and France have their own nuclear forces and no longer host U.S. weapons

You really should be a politician. Seems you can talk and talk and circle back, back peddle some more, and still go on and on without answering the question. Slippery.

[superdeath]

i think snowden did a good thing, and we need more like him