[SPOILERS] swance bitten, twice shy

[Tarkeel]

next turn is the micro-optimal time to whip this granary, yes? so next turn we will have 6/22 in the food box after the whip. then the granary will complete and we will have 10/12. then starting the next turn the granary will start doubling the food income, and there is exactly enough time to double 12 food which is half of the size 2 foodbox. is that right? or does the doubling start one turn earlier, on the turn the granary completes?

IIRC; as production comes before food in turn processing, you will get the granary effect the turn it completes. You also get it the turn you grow.

[RefSteel]

IIRC; as production comes before food in turn processing, you will get the granary effect the turn it completes. You also get it the turn you grow.

Food actually comes before production in the turn processing cycle, so the granary doesn't actually start collecting food until the turn after it completes.  (See Charriu's most-recent "Mysteries of the DLL" post showing food added 6th, granary storage updated 7th, population growth 8th, and production added 14th in each city.) As you say, it does collect food on the turn you grow (if the granary was finished by the end of the previous turn) though.  Thus, if I whip a granary in a size 2 city (thus dropping it down to size 1) that already has 12 food in the bin and is making 4 food per turn, then the next turn I'll have 16 of 22 food needed to grow, but no food stored in the granary.  But the next turn, if I switch to working a 6-food tile, I'll add 6 food to the city, enough to grow to the exact breadslice, but also add 6 food to the granary before the city's food is "spent" on the new population point. When the latter happens, the granary's 6 just-stored food is also added to the city - thus, I'll end up at size 2 with 6 food in the bin (out of 24 needed to grow).  Then by the time I grow to size 3, of course, I'll have filled the granary all the way to capacity:  If I work both the 6f and 4f tiles at size 2, netting +8f per turn, I'll have 14 in the bin the next turn, then 22 the turn after that, and then I'll grow to size 3 on the following turn, with 30/24 food.  Thus, after pop growth, I'll be at size 3 with 18/26 food in the bin:  The granary contributes 12 food (half the amount needed to grow to the new size, not half the food needed to grow from the new size) on top of the 8 "overflow" beyond the amount needed for growth.

[ljubljana]

thank you so much for the detailed info!! ok, i thiiiink that means i feel good about whipping hoshoryu's granary last turn

Turn 61 - Zululand



logs in right at the start of the turn just to be first to 5 cities :D

it's a good bet ginger has a settler on the map based on their whipping patterns, and clearly being ahead of the IMP and EXP civs is not going to last, buuuut we are going to live to connect copper, for sure

uhhhh went to go check on GT's warrior again and



ok i admit i was hoping it would at least last until i hit end turn

they have writing researched already (semi-obviously as America) and contact with GT/Superdeath/Dreylin. highly likely they are W of GT.... so the question is whether they and superdeath have another, even westerner pair or we are in the dead center and gingac + presumptive dreylin have a pair to their east. i rather hope it's the latter, otherwise we are truly the only neighbor that is close enough to ginger for them to care about, and therefore the natural target for their long-term expansion...

on the other hand, i am noticing that the two civs who are out to five cities have between them the only civ still stuck on three....

i moved the scout back on to the NE forest with its second move....which i'm now realizing puts it out of sight range of nauf's scout. does that mean we should PM them to tell them the tile on which we made contact?



my questionable decision for today is letting hoshoryu's whip overflow hit that archer. iiiii am just feeling a little thin over here with just the one unit, and don't want to lose the city to a wandering chariot, nor do i want GT whose position is starting to look really grim to get any ideas about how it might help their snowball recover. also it would be cool to grow to size 2 on the same turn our first cottage completes

note mjmd logged in mid-turn and got to 5 cities as well lol. and unlike nauf they are not imperialistic, and have stonehenge and likely a religion on top of that! wow, this oddball pick really looks suspiciously like it has already worked out for them



not AGG already saving us nonzero GPT  which FIN would still not be doing

specifically lmao at agg helping enable our worker fleet

medium-term plan now is roughly:
- get a settler and impi out of takakeisho and go for the gold, with chariot redirected from Kirishima as well
- mitakeumi's borders expand next turn - improve its food while chopping the granary
- at kirishima i still want to double-chop into whipping the library (!) when writing tech comes in, then run double scientist for an academy in the capital. i don't want to mess around with the culture war vs ankyra, we reaaaally really really want to stay ahead so we can control that hill and have permanent vision inside the city. and this area is a bit short of worker labor for the forseeable future and is therefore a reasonable candidate for specialists i think. but please tell me this is stupid if it is stupid
- horshoryu wants a third worker, either self-produced or borrowed from the capital, and then will probably chop a settler. not that i've decided what to DO with the settler yes (steal GT's pigs? ) but even if we are normal and go for the northern fish/horse site it needs a monument to be functional so it seems like not a bad idea to get it started early
- someday we will have enough workers and free time for cottages and a granary at the capital i guess

[ljubljana]

eeeeehehheheheh :oops:

[ljubljana]

Turn 62 - Zululand



hmm. ok, so this potentially gives mechanical benefit to nauf by letting them scout our lands, which could matter in the event of a future conflict. on the other hand, nauf is a natural ally in this position and potential GT-splitting partner, and while it shouldn't really matter perhaps i should vaguely signal friendly intentions. i guess it could help us coordinate an attack on GT, right? because i can scout the troops they have on GT's border and they can scout mine? and worst-case, i'll get as much intel about their cities as they will about mine, and in a 10-player game it's probably better to be on one end of a 1 for 1 exchange of information than to be left out.... presumably both of us will gain SOME ability to make rational decisions and therefore increased win probability, even if on both our ends that increase in win probability probably comes at the expense of the other lol. ok sure, have your OB. lurkers pls lmk as always if you think that's ludicrous lol



oh wtf, why can i see those tiles 2S of Mitakeumi's border, out of range of the scout? .....OH it's because of the mountain! lol so they do have a function



i see we have lost ginger's demos due to putting points into dreylin, and they are still apparently doing heavy EP spending into us.... what function does that serve if active missions are disabled and they'll presumably never hit the city vis or research threshold? just denial of graphs? or DO they expect to someday see our research.... and if so should we be doing likewise...



tomorrow morning's new toys: a promoted chariot and a worker, and the all-important border expansion at kirishima. hopefully that plus getting ginger's demos again will enable shifting one of these chariots south to escort the worker/settler party. hoshoryu is on impi just for a turn so it can whip if needed; next turn kirishima will do the same. takakeisho is planning to chop out an actual impi for the gold party, mita will start slow-building the granary i guess.... i did do the math on that and it finishes abouuuuut 1/3 of the way through size 3, which i suppose is fine. and it does enable putting a safety turn into impi fwiw

demos:



concerned about the food but i guess everything else looks ok. last in pop is amusing but clearly it's because i just whipped all our cities lol. it IS encouraging that we are still first in hammers despite being last in pop and at the front end of a whip cycle? sorry rival best, i guess the average zulu citizen is just more then 4x as productive as yours

[aetryn]

I'd probably build some cottages over chopping a library, but I'm not sure it's right. Cottages is the standard way to build a long-term economy, though. Not only do they grow up to +4 commerce improvements, there's a bunch of various bonuses from civics and techs for having towns (The top tier) and I think one or two for villages (the second to the top tier).

Cottages never look like a great idea in the moment you build them because they're not very strong starting out (well, they're not BAD for FIN leaders, who can get 4 commerce out of a riverside cottage after only 10t). The problem is if you keep delaying them then all the people that are already working cottages will just get farther and farther ahead on commerce.

But an academy could be effective - I just don't usually see it does as much (and in general my skill in using Great People is highly underdeveloped in general).

[mackoti]

Cottages are a must even if you run a specealist economy. I usualy find 3-4 cities which can work each at least 7-8 cotages and start as soon is posible.

[ljubljana]

yeah; i guess the reasons i am drawn to academy are that it seems strategically important to get as large a jump on ginger's city culture-wise as we can, which means a fast library in kirishima, and then if we're already investing in that, an academy seems more impactful than usual here given that most of our land is abysmal commerce-wise, so it's a higher effective multiplier on our total commerce than usual. but that presupposes that "better than usual" is enough to get all the way to "viable" which may not be true.

certainly it's not an either-or thing; kirishima's long-term fate is definitely to work as many cottages as feasible while maintaining +4ish food (is this right?), but the question is whether academy + culture war acceleration is worth delaying the growth of those cottages by a significant amount. "when in doubt, quantify" but i don't reeeeally know how to easily do that in this instance.... but what i can do is sim it out and compare to my "yes academy" baseline sim, which hits currency roughly t98... the competing build order in kirishima would be something like double-chopped worker -> worker makes cottages, kirishima whips granary -> THEN double-whip the library the next time it hits size 4. i do think this is the one spot we should really prioritize an early library even if we don't go for an academy, but how early we have to do so to maintain control of the plains hill that lets us see into the city is up for debate and depends on what ginger does of course

[ljubljana]

turn 63 - zululand

got kicked off the server mid-turn so i'll put some pictures here while i hope for it to resolve itself



ginger is poking around with a chariot in the south, where it could mess with the mitakeumi worker, exactly as we feared :< luckily it is just one, the other unit under there is dreylin's scout. i think both mita and kirishima get safety turns into impi (kirishima needs 2 to be able to whip)



looks like another whipped unit, which could be that axe in ankyra (which has lost a pop this turn). knowing our borders were about to pop, probably they wanted to whip so i wouldn't get any ideas about ramming 3 chariots into a chariot + warrior city. apparently we have now forced enough non-economic builds out of them that they and GT are now behind every other known player in expansion :O



is there a way to make the interface hide ginger's units so i can stalk the buildings they make here lol

[ljubljana]

aetryn you were right



by convention this soft-commits us to, what, 10 turns of peace? also, how will we know if it's accepted? or is the standard convention for "accepting" this to just send the same offer back?



more FP down here for ginger and us to fight over, it looks like. not sure how worth prioritizing this area is given the distances involved and the badness of the intervening land though. one question is whether we would rather scout southwest next into land we might someday think about settling, or straight east to try to find ginger's other neighbor.... leaning towards the former but i can be convinced



no comment



i realized i should micro kirishima by swapping to the 1/2 plains forest so we only need one safety turn to whip an impi. after this probably both this city and mitakeumi will start putting hammers into granary while we wait on sims to figure out what to do with the kirishima chops. the capital will do a real impi in 2 turns next to guard the new settler. and hoshoryu's storing its chop in a worker, but will swap off so it can grow onto our first! cottage! (!) next turn