Tech choices vs Discounted Research

[rgp151]

We all know that the way the racial research strengths work is that you only get a discount/bonus on researching techs within fields that the race is Good or Excellent in, but you don't get any additional technology picks. By default, everyone's "tech tree" is populated with 50% of the technologies in each field, except Pislons, who get 75%. 

This has never made much sense to me, because for the most part, its all really just a matter of equalizing out your tech spending, so having a bonus in field by a penalty in another really just cancels out if you increase spending in the Poor field and decrease it in the Good/Excellent field. 

So in terms of mods, I think it would be interesting to actually make it so you get more picks in fields you are Good/Excellent in and fewer in ones you are Poor in. Has this already been done? If so, how has it been implemented? Would be fun for RotP I think. I think it would also balance the game out more against Psilons.

Since Psilons are technically "Good" in every field and have 75% picks, does it make sense then for "Good" to  yield 75% of the picks, and Excellent to give like 90%? Seems maybe too high. Maybe not worry about making things match with Psilons. You may have to re-work Psilons to set them to Excellent on everything and then adjust their research rate to where it should be. 

Then maybe have excellent give 75% picks and Good like 65%? Poor couldn't go below 40%, maybe even just make it 45%?

Do you think this would be good or bad for the game? I really think it would be good and make the game work more the way people intuitively expect it to work.

[SpaceOWL]

As a quick example, it's already very painful to play the Meklar and spend a ton more BCs in Planetology reserch to clean up + colonize hostile planets
If on top of that you still have bigger holes in the tech tree, I think it's totally crippling

[rgp151]

As a quick example, it's already very painful to play the Meklar and spend a ton more BCs in Planetology reserch to clean up + colonize hostile planets
If on top of that you still have bigger holes in the tech tree, I think it's totally crippling

Yeah, the impact on Poor is the biggest concern, but then again, if as Meklar you got 75% picks in Computers, plus 40% discount on researching Computers, you can more easily spy back what you don't get.

[Ray F]

Although it's linked on the itch.io page, here the public repository for ROTP: https://github.com/rayfowler/rotp-public

That's all of the code. Feel free to explore!

However, a lot of modders are using the ROTP discord to work together so that might be a more effective way to experiment with new changes.

[rgp151]

Although it's linked on the itch.io page, here the public repository for ROTP: https://github.com/rayfowler/rotp-public

That's all of the code. Feel free to explore!

However, a lot of modders are using the ROTP discord to work together so that might be a more effective way to experiment with new changes.

Looks like it would be slightly tricky the way things are setup. This is for Psilons below:

Code:

// tech mods - discovery %, research bonus
techmod: 75, 150
...
// research category mods % - computer, construction, force field, planetary, propulsion, weapon
research: 80,80,80,80,80,80

Since the discovery% is a single universal value, more code changes would be needed in order to make the discovery % independent by research category.

I guess I'd have to break out discovery % and research bonus separately also, so it could be more like this for Psilons:

Code:

//research bonus
researchbonus: 150

// discovery % - computer, construction, force field, planetary, propulsion, weapon
discovery: 75,75,75,75,75,75 
...
// research category mods % - computer, construction, force field, planetary, propulsion, weapon
research: 80,80,80,80,80,80

And for something like Klackons it would be:

Code:

//research bonus
researchbonus: 100

// discovery % - computer, construction, force field, planetary, propulsion, weapon
discovery: 50,75,50,50,40,50
...
// research category mods % - computer, construction, force field, planetary, propulsion, weapon
research: 100,60,100,100,125,100

I'm not sure what coding changes would be required to support that, but conceptually there is a little problem in that Psilons are considered "Good" in all techs, hence the 20% discount to costs. But even though the discovery % and research cost bonuses are independent in your config, it would make sense conceptually that they were linked, so if Psilons have a discovery % of 75% and races with Excellent in a category also have 75% that's a little weird since Psilons are only Good, not Excellent. 

One way to sort of swag it would be to make Psilons Excellent in every category, but reduce their research bonus from 150% to 125%. Then all of their techs would be at 60% base cost instead of 80% and it would be consistent across all the races. At that point their only true "racial bonus" would be the 125% research bonus. 

Of course another way to do it and keep things consistent without having to change Psilons as much would be to make Good = 75% discovery and make Excellent 90%. It would be interesting for races to be better in their areas of specialty than the Psilons.

I guess the hardest hit from doing something like this would be the Silicoids, since their are Poor in everything but Computers. But then again, they would be just fine for Construction and Planetology, and so shouldn't really see any change there. But they would get slightly fewer picks in Force Fields, Propulsion and Weapons.

Just thinking through the balance impacts. I would think that:

Psilons would have less advantage, so their relative power would go down.
Klackons would be hobbled a little, but overall may actually come out stronger. The fewer propulsion options would be good for flavor, making them more likely to have to tool around in slow ships and to limit their expansion options early on, so it may help to constrain them, but getting more Construction techs would make them quite powerful - almost guaranteeing them Auto Repair, Strong Armor, and low pollution levels.
Humans would surely benefit a lot, giving them almost guaranteed Class V Planetary Shields, along with solid Planetology and Propulsion and no downside.
Silicoids would be hurt for sure. But really, any time I've played Silicoids on Impossible I had to play them like Darloks anyway, relying mostly on Spying once getting past the early game. 
Meklar I think would be ok. Yes, going down to 40% discovery in Planetology would be bad, but having your pick of Computer techs, along with the big discount is strong and means the Meklars are very good at Spying anyway. Their Planetology picks would go from the standard 15 down to 12, so you really only have 3 fewer picks.
Sakkra would of course get a big benefit, since like Humans they are not Poor in any field. 
Alkari probably wouldn't change much. Yeah, lower chance of Class V Planetary Shield is never good, but it probably wouldn't matter that much, especially in RotP. The Propulsion options would be very strong though, so I think overall they would benefit.  
Darlok would benefit since their are not Poor in any tech. More Computer options means more likely to get the critical Level III Robotic Controls.
Bulrathi would probably be hurt overall, since fewer Computer techs is bad. They'd have less chance of getting RCIII. But more Construction options is solid. I'd estimate it would be a modest downgrade for them.
Mrrshan would still be Mrrshan. More weapon picks isn't amazing and fewer Construction picks is bad. They would likely be hurt by such a change. 

I think it would be interesting for sure, and would disrupt the dominance of Psilons and Klackons always on top. Humans, Sakkra, and Darloks would see solid improvements. Klackons would be interestingly hobbled a little, which they need. The Meklar I think would be just fine and can makeup for Planetology losses from spying. The Alkari would be quite interesting. Their loss is non-economic and their gain is powerful but not directly economic. The big loser would be Silicoids, but again they have Spying to compensate. The Bulrathi and Mrrshan would be slightly worse off most likely. But then again, with their strong weapon selections, they would still pose a threat for early rushing.

[Ray F]

I think that the 75% discovery chance is the key Psilon racial ability. Sharing it among other races, even in selected categories, would water that down, imo.

If you are mostly wanting to tweak the power balance between races, then it seems like adjusting the Psilon's research bonus and the Klackon's production bonus would be the most straightforward way and would not require any changes beyond the racial data files.

However, the purpose of open-sourcing is to allow players to tweak the game in whatever direction they want, so go to town!

[rgp151]

I think that the 75% discovery chance is the key Psilon racial ability. Sharing it among other races, even in selected categories, would water that down, imo.

If you are mostly wanting to tweak the power balance between races, then it seems like adjusting the Psilon's research bonus and the Klackon's production bonus would be the most straightforward way and would not require any changes beyond the racial data files.

However, the purpose of open-sourcing is to allow players to tweak the game in whatever direction they want, so go to town!

Yeah, but I mean the problem with MoO is that there are really only two strong races: Psilons and Klackons. Darloks can hang on Impossible for fun, but everything else is really just a downgrade. 

Its never really made sense to me, and I think to a lot of people sense its a common misconception, that being Excellent in a tech field really gives you no meaningful advantage. Other than Humans, Sakkra, and Darloks, who have no Poor fields, the mix of Excellent and Poor is pretty meaningless since all resources are fungible. All that being Excellent in one tech and Poor in another means is that you just adjust the sliders up in one tech and down in the other and then they all research at effectively the same rate. It doesn't really make a race any "better" in a given field.

The only thing that really makes a race "better" is having more options to choose from, and the only race that has that is Psilons. So it just makes Psilons a go-to over and over again.

I think making it so races are actually "more knowledge" in their field is specialty makes sense and would add favor. For sure it should be an optional mod. The Psilons would still have the best research overall, they would just be less dominant, which is a good thing IMO.

[Cyneheard]

FusionMod has this option when you're making Custom Races, so it's probably also something you can change for the base races.

https://github.com/Xilmi/Rotp-Fusion

[RefSteel]

being Excellent in a tech field really gives you no meaningful advantage. Other than Humans, Sakkra, and Darloks, who have no Poor fields, the mix of Excellent and Poor is pretty meaningless since all resources are fungible. All that being Excellent in one tech and Poor in another means is that you just adjust the sliders up in one tech and down in the other and then they all research at effectively the same rate. It doesn't really make a race any "better" in a given field.

This is a little like saying an eighteen-wheeler gives you no meaningful advantage over a Formula-1 racecar. After all, the racecar can deliver the same amount of cargo - the F-1 just has to make more trips, and make them faster! If you need a given tech urgently, there is no way to get it even nearly as quickly with a race that's Poor in its field as you can with a race that's Excellent there. In the short term, that means you can start the same tech later and still get it "on time" or you can afford to start it sooner and benefit sooner because the return horizon on your smaller investment is closer or you can start at the same time and get it at the same time and invest in other things (like factories or colships or a spacefleet) that aren't another tech field you're not as good at. When you're forming your mid-term or long-term strategy, you can plan for more and quicker advances in your Good-to-Excellent fields and a deeper dive down those trees, and it's part of what makes every race play differently. You'll usually do some research in your weaker fields, but they're more attractive targets for spying, trade, or conquest strategies that rely on the things you are good at instead. And it is viable to avoid research in a Poor field entirely. (Several of our Imperia even required this for different fields, and forbade acquiring techs in the field by other means too, and they were fun to play, though not normally an actually-sound strategy!)

[rgp151]

This is a little like saying an eighteen-wheeler gives you no meaningful advantage over a Formula-1 racecar.  After all, the racecar can deliver the same amount of cargo - the F-1 just has to make more trips, and make them faster!  If you need a given tech urgently, there is no way to get it even nearly as quickly with a race that's Poor in its field as you can with a race that's Excellent there.  In the short term, that means you can start the same tech later and still get it "on time" or you can afford to start it sooner and benefit sooner because the return horizon on your smaller investment is closer or you can start at the same time and get it at the same time and invest in other things (like factories or colships or a spacefleet) that aren't another tech field you're not as good at.  When you're forming your mid-term or long-term strategy, you can plan for more and quicker advances in your Good-to-Excellent fields and a deeper dive down those trees, and it's part of what makes every race play differently.  You'll usually do some research in your weaker fields, but they're more attractive targets for spying, trade, or conquest strategies that rely on the things you are good at instead.  And it is viable to avoid research in a Poor field entirely.  (Several of our Imperia even required this for different fields, and forbade acquiring techs in the field by other means too, and they were fun to play, though not normally an actually-sound strategy!)

Maybe, I mean there are many different ways to play the game. Generally, I have two modes of research: Early game and everything else. In the early game I generally just research Propulsion, Planetology and Construction in the beginning, then also add in Computers for a bit. Doesn't matter what your strengths and weaknesses are, you still need those opening techs from those fields. So for like Klackons, I just invest more heavily in Propulsion and less in Construction in the beginning. For  Meklars I again just invest more in Planetology than I otherwise would. For like Humans I would invest more in construction then I otherwise would since it doesn't get a discount but the other two do. Etc. Then once I get my opening techs in those fields I add in Computers and just research those four fields, adjusting for what's most relevant and accounting for discounts and penalties. 

Then once I get my second Computer tech, or earlier if circumstances require, I open all fields and generally set everything to equal, then go 1 click down in every field except Computers, which gives 5 clicks up in Computers, then assuming I'm not a race that's Good/Excellent in Computers, I go down one additional click in whatever field I'm Excellent in, and up two clicks in whatever I'm Poor in, so like for Klackons I'd go down 1 more click in Construction and put that click into Propulsion and also take one click away from Computers to put into Propulsion.

At that point I've basically compensated for the Excellent/Poor mix and am most heavily invested in Computers, to help with spying. 

If I'm playing Darloks or Silicoids, then I would have like 50% to 75% of my investment in Computers, no investment in several fields, and then have 1 or 2 fields that I distribute investments to, based on what I need and what other races have available.

For Meklars I invest a little less in Computers and a little more in Planetology. With Sakkra I invest a little less in Planetology and put those extra clicks into Computers.

With Psilons I invest equally in everything, then go one click down in every field and put that click into Computers, which is then 5 clicks up.

So I mean, in the end, it generally all equals out. Are there other ways to do it? Sure. Does it change on occasion depending circumstances? Sure. 

But generally, its not that beneficial to race ahead in one field to the detriment of others. The one exception here being Computers, since that helps you spy. 

I think we can all agree, however, that getting more tech options in addition or a discount is stronger than not having more tech options. 

I think we can also agree that Pslions are head and shoulders above all other races in the game, with the exception of Klackons. What makes Psilons so good is having 75% of the tech options in every field. 

Giving other races more tech options in areas they are Good/Excellent and giving fewer options in areas they are Poor in would help balance out the game more by diminishing the unique benefit of the Psilons. Most races would see a net benefit from this, with the one clear looser from this approach being the Silicoids, who are Poor in everything except Computers. But the Silicoids wouldn't be hurt as much as it seems because it would have no real impact on Construction or Planetology since they can't use a lot of those techs anyway, so their picks would stay the same in those fields, and they typically rely a lot on Spying anyhow. Taking tech choices away from Klackons in Propulsion may help balance them out more too. The other concern would be Meklars, but since they are Excellent in Computers I don't consider this a big issue as they are very strong in Spying anyhow.

Anyway, I'm not sure I'll get around to making the code changes needed in RotP for this since it will require changes beyond just changes to the racial configurations.