American Politics Discussion Thread

[greenline]

The goal isn't preserving Ukrainian lives, the goal is preserving the Ukrainian way of life.  Obviously.

Darrell

I struggle to understand what about the Ukranian state prior to the invasion was uniquely worth fighting for. It was one of several post-Soviet countries with high corruption, declining birth rates, a stagnant economy, and on and off ethnic cleansings going on in the background. Most of those problems will only be aggravated even if Ukraine survives the war intact. What is being preserved?

[Mjmd]

The goal isn't preserving Ukrainian lives, the goal is preserving the Ukrainian way of life.  Obviously.

Darrell

I struggle to understand what about the Ukranian state prior to the invasion was uniquely worth fighting for. It was one of several post-Soviet countries with high corruption, declining birth rates, a stagnant economy, and on and off ethnic cleansings going on in the background. Most of those problems will only be aggravated even if Ukraine survives the war intact. What is being preserved?

Lets set aside any validity of this 100% Russian propaganda and just note that EACH of those issues is worse in Russia.

Ukraine definitely cares about who they are and how they are governed, see 2014. And one thing uniting all former eastern bloc countries who have a choice is they REALLY don't want to be part of Russia again.

[darrelljs]

The goal isn't preserving Ukrainian lives, the goal is preserving the Ukrainian way of life.  Obviously.

Darrell

I struggle to understand what about the Ukranian state prior to the invasion was uniquely worth fighting for. It was one of several post-Soviet countries with high corruption, declining birth rates, a stagnant economy, and on and off ethnic cleansings going on in the background. Most of those problems will only be aggravated even if Ukraine survives the war intact. What is being preserved?

 
You don't get to have an opinion on that.  Neither do I.  The people in Ukraine are the only ones that get to.  And they are begging for help, and dying to keep Russia from conquering them.

Darrell

[greenline]

The South Vietnamese were begging for aid and intervention up until the Fall of Saigon. A line has to be drawn somewhere on what causes are legitimate enough to support and which are worth disavowing.

[Charr Babies]

Right, how did Afghan and Viet Nam turn out..

As independent, self governed nations?

Darrell

I don't get it. 
US went in to fight the Taliban and 20 years later we suffered a humiliating rout, and the Taliban now rule Afghanistan.
US went in to fight North Vietnam, the communist, and 20 years later we got our ass kicked, and North Vietnam won. 
And we take credit for _____?

[Mjmd]

The South Vietnamese were begging for aid and intervention up until the Fall of Saigon. A line has to be drawn somewhere on what causes are legitimate enough to support and which are worth disavowing.

I mean shockingly a lot of our major allies don't like the idea of Russia taking whatever they want. A lot of our other allies don't like the idea of a powerful neighbor just taking what they want.

We get to help support and build our already powerful alliance network and ruin a major geopolitical rival for a FRACTION of our normal defense spending (edit: and unlike Vietnam we aren't putting our own troops on the ground). Seems like a no brainer.

[Mjmd]

@Charr I think he was pointing out that it isn't unreasonable to assume Ukraine comes out of this as an independent self governed nation.

[Charr Babies]

The goal isn't preserving Ukrainian lives, the goal is preserving the Ukrainian way of life.  Obviously.

Darrell

I struggle to understand what about the Ukranian state prior to the invasion was uniquely worth fighting for. It was one of several post-Soviet countries with high corruption, declining birth rates, a stagnant economy, and on and off ethnic cleansings going on in the background. Most of those problems will only be aggravated even if Ukraine survives the war intact. What is being preserved?

 
You don't get to have an opinion on that.  Neither do I.  The people in Ukraine are the only ones that get to.  And they are begging for help, and dying to keep Russia from conquering them.

Darrell

I get to have an opinion because my tax dollars are funding the wars. 

The Paleoindians are also begging for help, and yet we participate in the genocide. It's time we stop pretending we are benevolent.

[Mjmd]

@ Charr

Shockingly we can be making good decisions and bad decisions at the same time. You can both believe supporting Ukraine is the right decision and letting Israel get away with genocide is bad. The two things are not incompatible.

[Mjmd]

But ya I can make a great easy no brainer geopolitical argument for supporting Ukraine. I've never quite understood what we get out of supporting Israel, and it makes less sense than ever now.