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[SPOILERS] swance bitten, twice shy

if we had razed and replaced ankyra 1 tile west, we could have a canal city to get boats into that little lake by meleti via forts.... but as it stands we can't because of that same stupid peak frown(((

edit: oh shit. THAT's where we were supposed to hide the great general.... NW of ankyra off the coast on a boat, then fort NW of the city. well isn't that just the nicest thing you ever did hear....

well, perhaps we can still do SOMEthing with that idea.... hide cats off the coast and try to bait them into a stack wipe somehow?

i am also thinking maybe we do need to take the 200 beaker hit and research drama.... not for the globe (probably?) but just so we can build culture in ankyra when it's out of resistance until we have seized its first-ring tiles back. or is it music that lets you do that (editors note: it IS music)
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(June 3rd, 2024, 16:45)ljubljana Wrote: if we had razed and replaced ankyra 1 tile west, we could have a canal city to get boats into that little lake by meleti via forts.... but as it stands we can't because of that same stupid peak

Not actually, though that's a common misconception. The game treats forts and cities the same way for canal purposes: Ships can only enter them when they're directly touching a water tile. (Though diagonal is good enough for "touching.")
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oh, so it does! thanks for giving me this heads-up before i made any decisions based off it smile

so with that in mind, does that mean that any two-tile gap between water bodies can be canalled with forts + cities (unless blocked by peaks), and no 3-tile gap can be? if that's the case, it seems like the position of the city in all this should never make a difference in whether a canal is possible or not?
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That is all correct.

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The game essentially treats forts exactly like cities for CD, CR promotions, aircraft unit limits as well.
Current games (All): RtR: PB80 Civ 6: PBEM23

Ended games (Selection): BTS games: PB1, PB3, PBEM2, PBEM4, PBEM5B, PBEM50. RB mod games: PB5, PB15, PB27, PB37, PB42, PB46, PB71. FFH games: PBEMVII, PBEMXII. Civ 6:  PBEM22 Games ded lurked: PB18
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logged back in as tarkeel is playing



and they accepted the long NAP, until t197 which is practically the end of the game. that removes my last major worry about burning our civ down with the whip, that any successful conquest along those lines will just lead to a dogpile. also caught some horses mysteriously teleporting into and then back out of their pasture just across the american border smile



irrigation finally online at matara after much unease. these cities are really coming along nicely actually. and, i would actually go so far as to say, much more nicely than nauf's conquests on the other side of the border



food lead increasingly gigantic



golden age demos. you'd think we'd be competitive in a position like this right....? too bad that "third in soldiers" is all that really matters smile

looks like the special someone beating us in GNP is mjmd, nice...



they haven't gone for anything TOO scary with it yet (i would describe liberalism as "too scary") but i'm sure it's coming. note that despite my speculation they aren't one of the chemistry-havers, dreylin was apparently the second (the first being nauf) before The Fall.... 



SD took their city back with a bigass knight stack..... sadly increasing the odds mjmd will have to pile-on again in 10t to rein them in



drey roaded our hill (great!) and then deleted their workers (noooo why.... there are so many other roads in this area they could have made frown



well, i don't SEE any giant cuir stack in range of the roaded hill... doesn't mean there isn't one but there are only two specific tiles on which it might live. i am going to go ahead and play the "park our units on the hill" game, i think it's worth taking a risk that small to wipe out 5 janissaries if they try to heal in the city. this may have been a huge tactical mistake though on account of this, which i only noticed after committing: what if the drey city NE of ura falls this turn, then the tile 2NE of ura does NOT revert to our control due to weird border shenaningans, and then ginger can combat road over and kill ura with cuirs??? UGH fuck please don't let that happen. i panickedly stuck 3 longbows there on defense (all that were still in range) but if there are enough cuirs that won't do much of anything



well, putting in a little half-measure bid for getting control of these woods. a woodsman pike and musket and a formation pike - have fun trying to efficiently attack that with cuirs.... we can't really threaten much yet but this is a good outpost for our sentry chariot at least

next turn: nationhood, theocracy, judaism, and i THINK i am leaning towards staying in serfdom until the end but let's see how the math situation looks
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Turn 173 - Zululand

ok, let's see it.... have i blundered.... if not the queen, then a very important piece in ura?



ginger has sent us some "generous" peace terms..... well, i suppose that means we are about to open the turn to SOME kind of major military threat, though judging by the minimap it doesn't seem to be a fait-accompli fall of ura

actually nope, no one even died except for a scout, who was frankly pretty sacrificial. 

ginger has also finished banking and is heading for printing press.... evidently in service of a rifling push? which i mean, sure, that's terrifying, game-ending even, if they can get there, but i'm not sure how worried we're supposed to be about it when their GNP looks like this



as for the lungfish attack



i think this looks decent-to-good for us.... there is an injured G2 jan against whom our G2 musket gets roughly coinflip odds, and then the top jan in the city is CR2 and has a probable kill against our healthy city raider mace. but the other units are very badly injured and will be cleanup. most likely counterattackers are in range but we can return the city to dreylin to hedge against that. the most important point of this operation would be not to keep the city long-term (yet?) but to take a good hammer exchange and force ginger to waste time retaking the city. flounder, the city NE of ura, we are also not yet in position to attack but i'm hoping we can turn it into another thorn in ginger's side and drain on their time and resources.

in the north



ginger respects our claim to the northern wood and has added their own, to the southern (and, yes, more important) wood.... a cuir and two axes is not what i'd call "impressive" but it does beat what we have to attack with right now. that's ok though, i think i'm fine with waiting to take it until we have more horse in range. establishing what amounts to permanent visibility on prussa (via our sentry chariot) unless they take some very bad trades to clear us out is no small thing

so um.... i just did something that i'm gonna need yall to not call me out on lol



hey, it redeems 8 tiles, all of which are boosted by serfdom... and it comes with 3 chops to almost pay back the cost of the settler (pay no attention that that payoff is coming in the form of a granary and ikhanda that we would otherwise not have had to build...) plus it makes me believe that we have a future in this game other than getting crushed by ginger so i proclaim that to constitute value

well, still a lot of uncertainty about how i want the shape of the rest of this turn to play out, but i'll take the little attack at lungfish, at least

musket vs injured g2 jan (45%): dies but it's very close
longbow vs the same (100%): wins flawlessly
cr2 mace vs jan (17%): dies but does good damage
7.2 health mace (yeah, we never had time to stop to heal from aksum....) vs 4.3 health jan: got emmm
uh.... 5.9 health mace vs 5 health jan (68%): wins
uesugi kenshin (heavily promoted guerilla 3 longbow) vs 4.6 health jan (88%): that's a win
um... we have to use more longbows on offense but what are we supposed to do to make them better against jans? they can't take pinch.....
...... drill 3 longbow (please don't laugh... although in retrospect i do think i should have gone combat 2) vs 3.2 health jan (92%): wins
and for the treb we should just go in with the guerilla bow directly i think so it can defend the city



wow, one whole gold lol you're too kind, game....

anyways, the only way to keep our survivors from getting wiped by cuirs in the fog is to give the city back to dreylin, so i'll be doing that smile not sure if i'm supposed to risk some of OUR units to try to defend it afterwards on drey's behalf... i might, but more likely i'll just leave them in range of more cruel little counterattacks like this. if our survivors continue to survive, we will have killed 5 jans and a trebuchet for the price of just one of our muskets and an obsolete mace, not a bad ROI at all



except. we could be in some trouble after all, because.... dreylin logged in as i was playing and refused to take lungfish back frown that, i have to admit, i was not anticipating. only motivations i can think of are a) uncertainty about if it's allowed in the rules (we voted for 1 city per deal.....) and b) desire to screw us (but then why build the road to let us take the city in the first place? and how pissed off at someone do you have to be to turn down a free city from them???) either way, i'm sad to say that there's a good chance our brave attackers now get totally slaughtered for no reason on ginger's turn frown




i have adopted a new approach to combat-roading in areas that could be in range of a cuir snipe: just do it with one worker only, and leave them unguarded. that way while ginger COULD snipe the worker, the implied threat of being killed by a pike on the counterattack should be enough to keep the exchange inefficient-looking in their mind.... and ofc guarding with a stack should be even worse as they know we're rolling a decent number of cats around at this point

ok, i worried about it extensively and we are really not remotely close to finishing miltrad by the end of the GA. plus the late slavery swap not only accelerates the tech but means we can stay in slavery longer to whip multiple cuir waves. i'm going to swap to nationhood/theocracy but stay in serfdom for now. so let's draft some guys!

"hell no, we won't go!" so sayeth the citizens of mitakeumi, takayasu, ura, and daiesho, who, and i just checked this with our chiefs of staff, very much ARE going to go. and as expected, in theocracy, we are juuuust barely over the threshold where our new draftees can take pinch out of the gate and murder janissaries. or they can take woodsman and defend our dubious claim to the Forests of Attaleia

now i have to go swap a bunch of cities that are not yet jewish off their 1t-from-completion unit builds. but i think our timing was still basically good on the judaiization push. i haven't been highlighting it but we are up to 11 jewish cities, and takakeisho, ura, and late-bloomer lalibela (yup, THE lalibela) are all 2-turning missionaries. at this point most of our strong cities are jewish, it's mostly the small ones who haven't seen the light (excepting border-city monsters kirishima and wakamotoharu, but i'm somewhat hesitant to draft heavily from there as they are supplying all our western holdings with 3-gold domestic trade routes)

we also finished a gigantic number of GA-powered military builds this turn, something like 8 or 10... so all in all i'm quite eager to see the brewing spike in our milpower smile assuming we don't blow it all getting pushed back due to the Lungfish Debacle >:[ really drey, you don't want your city back?? man, why the hell not?

one more thing.... i um... i know this is my fault and is also probably going to be reversed next turn, but i'm getting a little nervous about our city count.... up to 29, 5 higher than second-place superdeath, within striking distance of ginger's milpower and apparently up two cities in our war with them? these other nerds aren't about to forget that ginger is the runaway here, right? ginger? whose every city is worth about a billion of ours via the trinity? luckily it's not like greenline of "i have no gunpowder" or mjmd of "i have no gunpowder and am also about to shut off research forever" can do much about it but.....

i have now dismissively laughed off first a genuine peace offer from ginger and now what could maybe be better characterized as a peace demand... but i wonder about in what circumstances we should be considering peace with them..... in my opinion the only acceptable endgame is conquest, or at least stripping them of their babylonian gains (and of course they'd never take peace after that), but is that really true? say they were willing to give us 3 or 4 cities for peace (strictly speaking i don't think this is legal, but let's say we temporarily get up 3 cities by taking flounder and lungfish and then offer peace for a fourth), and in exchange we don't have to whip ourselves into the ground mass-building cuirs.... would the game really be over in ginger's favor after such a deal?
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re the dubious statement i just made about mjmd's research



sistine's up and that's the last tech they need for culture. well, maybe in an MP context they should cash that for nationalism and then research gunpowder, but then THAT should be it. not sure how much military tech the rest of us can expect to research from here before they MUST be dogpiled (infantry? cavs? or just grens/cannons?) but as far as the "is culture their plan" question it's looking increasingly likely IMO

looks like some lurker discussion in drey's thread, so maybe the "unsure if it's legal" view is correct here.... at the risk of being annoying, maybe i should send them another offer in case they decide they are allowed to accept the city, and want to log back in and do so? they have to know that if they DON'T accept right now, on this turn, ginger is highly likely to take it back immediately without the babylonian borders to slow them down. but that's getting into a dangerous amount of interweaving game actions over multiple logins territory imo....

idk yall.... lurkers, if it turns out that what happened is drey wanted to accept but wanted to check with lurkers to see if it's legal, what is the appropriate action for us to take here? according to a strict interpretation of the rules it seems likely that in checking with the lurkers, they will end up having rendered the deal no longer possible...
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(June 4th, 2024, 19:45)ljubljana Wrote: idk yall.... lurkers, if it turns out that what happened is drey wanted to accept but wanted to check with lurkers to see if it's legal, what is the appropriate action for us to take here?

Take deep breaths and try not to worry about it too much until your turn comes up again.  (And, if you want, in the meantime, hope things go your way.)  If there's anything you need to do because of a weird situation involving lurkers, you can definitely count on lurkers to communicate with you about it.  Since nobody's requested anything of you here or in the tech thread, whatever is happening doesn't require intervention from your side, and you can focus on other stuff.  (Whether this means additional Civ4 war plans or e.g. pancakes with raspberry preserves is up to you!)
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realizing that ginger has said their time zone is PST (same as mine) and their pointer-deferencing username gives strong software engineering vibes so the odds of them living specifically in seattle or SF (same as me) are high.... very tempted to ask them to hang out and play war turns while glaring at each other from across my living room

but would that constitute illegal non-ai diplomacy lol
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