[PB78] Underdogs and undercats: The Mrrshan warlords visit the world of Civ IV

[shallow_thought]

Ouch ouch ouch.

Well, there are worse things (much of RL for starters). But yeah, barbs on can cause problems, raging barbs is for hard-core "next game please" players. Doesn't mean that it can't be fun (EitB MP games continue to exist) but it's a nasty introduction.

If there's an upside, I feel it might be that the challenge is now explicity "do the best possible give the depth of the hole", which might be freeing.

Also, while expert players will have a more informed view than me, I'm not convinced you anything wrong. Took decisions that didn't pay off, perhaps, but in an MP game the "safety play" in the early part of the game can just be a slower way to lose - at least in Civ IV.

[thrawn]

The barb won't teleport unless you have the Great Wall (in which case it won't attack anyway). Good luck turning this around after that truly horrendous luck!

Thanks Ref. Always good to hear from you and to get a confirmation from the master.

Ouch ouch ouch.

Well, there are worse things (much of RL for starters). But yeah, barbs on can cause problems, raging barbs is for hard-core "next game please" players. Doesn't mean that it can't be fun (EitB MP games continue to exist) but it's a nasty introduction.

If there's an upside, I feel it might be that the challenge is now explicity "do the best possible give the depth of the hole", which might be freeing.

Also, while expert players will have a more informed view than me, I'm not convinced you anything wrong. Took decisions that didn't pay off, perhaps, but in an MP game the "safety play" in the early part of the game can just be a slower way to lose - at least in Civ IV.

You mean you don't expect me to win this?

[thrawn]

Turn 42

Plan Marshall

After losing our capital on T40 we were reduced to this:




Willow, a single pop city founded on T36.

It will be hard to come out of it and we'll need a few things to go our way but we are not out of the game and until then I'll play to win - no variants.

The first thing is to run a little gamble and complete a granary and barracks before any units. You can see on the screenshot I've set up some sentrying with a workboat in the north and a scout in the east and there are preplaced barbs that extend this area. Our main weak spot is the SW but the barbs there zoomed in on Fierias and we killed the dangerous archer and can handle the remaining warrior. Plus Fierias is also fogbusting and won't be producing units for a while. By doing the granary first we maximise foodhammers (and do we need to maximise to get out of this economic hole) and the barracks will greatly improve survivability. So I think that while faster units might prolong our life, starting with the infrastructure will give us a better chance to actually win the game. But I've placed 1h in an archer so we can emergency whip if we spot incoming barbs.

The worker is improving the horse because we'll need it as well as a couple of mines on the grass hills to get some hammers in. I'm doing it before the chops because they'll still be there in a few turns but we'd be losing yields without an improved tile for the third citizen. The warrior is next to it to look out for barbs coming from the road but it will step down now and go back to the city since borders pop next turn.

Then the first unit out will be not an archer but a woody 2 dog which will secure our SW side by going to the forest W of the lake. That will give it 100% plot defence and with C1 and fortification it will have a total of 135% or 9.4 strength against archers and another 50% or 11.4 strength against axes. And more importantly, after winning 4 battles it will promote to woody 3 getting 2 first strikes and +15% healing per turn, becoming a formidable sentry. This will be our perimeter strategy in general (for the non-player facing areas) - woody dogs parked in forests. If we live long enough we might even promote one or two of them to supermedics eventually.

For builds we'll 2-whip the granary the moment the city grows to 4 and it will be ready just in time to fill up before the next growth. T52 for the granary and T53 or 11 turns from now for the woody dog. It's a long time but everything seems quiet.

For research pottery will take six turns so I'll start it on T44 to wait for additional KTB (we have only one at the moment) and to avoid giving KTB to others. Until then we'll work on sailing because when the barb city flips and whips a worker to improve the gold, we'll want to transport that worker to the mainland along with the free archer that will spawn. The galley will also come from the barb city, whipping it down to one if necessary. We won't be investing in it for a while and will be using every available foodhammer on the mainland.

Overall I'd estimate this as a ~20 turn setback. The new city was founded on T36 but we had a worker which deducts 11. Then a little more for the good GNP and being close to pottery+whips, but not too much because our main problem is foodhammers and here we have fewer chops and the barb city won't be contributing many hammers either.

[xist10]

I'm not really sure, but I would say, take the capital back first seems to be the best idea.

The dogs are terrible in my opionion, but they should win against the expected defending warrior.
Otherwise, you can still win, but this means mostly "mistakes" from other players.

Risk plays are okay in this case. You have nothing to lose, so...

[thrawn]

If the barbs build an archer after coming out of resistance (which they probably will), that archer would have been ready before we could whip and get a dog there even if we had started on one right away. And I want our forces concentrated around Willow so when Gav and Magic come scouting we look like we may be crippled but are still a bit too much pain to conquer immediately. If we survive the next 10 turns the biggest danger will be chariots and especially immortals. Both of them can reach us in 4 turns from their capitals.

Also, I don't consider the game lost. We'll be playing from behind but can dig ourselves in pretty well and bide our time. There is vast land to the SW to settle that will remain uncontested for a while. No one will be capturing Fierias anytime soon either because it's too far from them. And we'll still have a very decent GNP and can get swords or horchers quickly. If the others get into wars with one another and don't consider us either a threat or an easy meal, we may get enough time to claw our way back into relevance.

[Mjmd]

I'm pretty convinced you lost all those high odds fights on purpose for the next level IQ play of flipping that city earlier.

Good luck!

[shallow_thought]

You mean you don't expect me to win this?

If the best possible result from here is, in fact, winning: then, sorry I should have been clearer - go on and win!

[thrawn]

Turn 43

Borders pop and the Willow's looking good. Rivet is in the hands of the gods. At 10% it can flip next turn or it can flip in 20.




We have a visitor.




It's just a warrior so it's not too bad. I decided to face it in the city - vodka says ~99% with two turns of fortification and given the circumstances this is good enough for me. Whipping an archer will certainly reduce our chances by more than 1%. Also, the pasture is not complete yet so no danger of it getting pillaged.

However, a question before I move - if the worker is on the gems, will the barb attack the city, or will it go for the worker, or will it be random between the two? I'm planning to bring the worker to the city now together with the warrior, and send it to the gems next turn.

[xist10]

It would expect the warrior to attack the city, but I’m not sure.

[thrawn]

Ok, let's see!

If a barb spawns between Willow and Magic's capital in the north, is it possible to tell whether it will go towards him or towards us depending on terrain and roads? I'd like to know which tiles I need to fogbust.