American Politics Discussion Thread

[Mjmd]

- I mean maybe we should expand social safety nets; maybe we should increase the minimum wage - not things Republicans are going to vote for. A lot of subsidized or free housing initiatives are also more of a liberal policy. Conservatives tend to lean more to making it illegal without actually addressing any of the root causes. So yes very fair to criticize for not doing enough, but there aren't a lot of substantive fixes being floated from Republicans. Easy to criticize, harder to do solutions.
- I wonder if Trump moving the US embassy to Jeriuselum or changing the US stance on settlements to be more favorable to Israel are good indicators that he wouldn't be better for that tragedy? Like yes you can give Biden an F. Its an auto fail situation, but you can't honestly believe Trump would be better. Harris did some out and say the war has to stop. She used stronger language the Joe. Don't know if she will do more than Joe, but there is no indication Trump would do more. He would also just let Russia have its way in Ukraine by stopping aid. Ukrainians aren't just going to say "well the US stopped sending aid I guess we give up and let ourselves be conquered". They will keep fighting with diminished aid levels, and I find it very unlikely the EU would also give up on them. So we will just lose respect amongst our most valuable allies and there will be more Ukrainian deaths as their was when they had shell / other supply shortages due to delayed US aid.

End results do matter, and yes its always easy to criticize. We don't know the future. Trump would undoubtedly change policy on both counts, but its almost as certain as future history can be that the Palestinian situation doesn't improve because of his actions. The pressure and changing attitudes there pretty clearly on the left. Its possible there is enough pressure from the rest of the world, but Trump is 99% not going to help. And your counting on the Ukrainians just giving up, which the Molotov cocktails they were making when most of the west thought they would be conquered in two weeks to me indicate they probably won't.

[greenline]

Unfortunately, Trump is not a cool enough guy that he could promise to make both Hamas and Israel lose and suffer greatly, so we must be content in expecting him delivering another Israeli victory. Maybe Vance will make it happen if his political career continues after this election.

[Charr Babies]

Funny that you come up with "it's always easy to criticize" to excuse what biden has done, and not allow the same excuse for trump. Then you put forth what trump would have, might do (conjectures) against what biden did (facts).

I do feel for you. It must be tough to be a die-hard democrat when blind loyalty trumps reality.

Again, I have no love for trump. However, even if there is only a very slim chance trump would take us out of this biden mess, he's the lesser evil.

[Mjmd]

We KNOW Trump was cozy with Israel his first term. Again, we have FACTS that he broke long American foreign policy on both our embassy location and settlement stance. Both things multiple Democrats nor Republicans admins before hadn't previously done. Yes we have facts that Biden hasn't done enough. But you have no facts Trump would be better. Past actions and current statements would "conjecture" that he would side more heavily with Israel. You are correct its conjecture, but is a very high odds chance he makes it worse worth the extremely low chance he makes it better? I mean what odds do you give those two options? Being generous as there is no political pressure on the right to make things better and his past actions and current statements, if he is 98% to make it worse, is it worth betting on the 2% he makes it an unknown amount better? Again, I feel 2% is being generous as Trump criticized the one time Biden did delay bomb shipments. Like we have a recent relevant example.

[Charr Babies]

We KNOW Trump was cozy with Israel his first term

You are really grasping at straws 

And we have previous potus who were cozy with communist china. Does that mean they are responsible for the "genocide" in Xinjian!?

[Mjmd]

Sorry did he not do the things I said he did? Has he not said the things I've quoted him as saying? If you have some mitigating facts or statements from Trump feel free to present them. Attacking known facts without any counter argument of your own isn't terrible convincing. Like please explain to me how his statement on Biden not providing a bomb shipment (something that I'm assuming you are saying shouldn't be happening and agreed was a correct decision / direction), isn't relevant information.

[Charr Babies]

You voted for biden, so you must be responsible for genocide too?

Besides, trump has a big chance on stopping the ukraine war, instead of the current regime to let ukraine be wasted to the last soldier. That alone is worthy of my vote.

[Mjmd]

I notice you are changing the subject as you usually do. SHOCKING! Please answer the question, but I will answer yours.

Yes. I however don't believe Republicans would be better on the issue (see above). So do you not vote also making you complicit because that shows you don't care, or vote for the lessor of two evils.

HOW will he stop the war. His biggest lever is stopping aid. As I've already discussed this is unlikely to stop Ukraine from fighting. It will just cause more of them to die, as they did when Republicans delayed aid before. Is it the right thing to let them be conquered? Like I'm confused how the Israelis invading Palestine is bad in your mind but Russia invading Ukraine isn't. In one of these we are supporting the invaders who are committing genocide and you disagree, but you are also disagreeing with supporting the defenders in the other. Some would say you have inconsistent standards. I also want you to game out this out. Trump wins and says he will stop Ukraine aid. Will that make Putin want more or less at the bargaining table? Have you see his current proposed "peace" plan? He is basically already demanding surrender. Do you think the Ukrainians would do so? Would you? If the US and the EU (highly unlikely) turned our backs on them I think they would continue to fight.

[Charr Babies]

I notice you are changing the subject as you usually do. SHOCKING! Please answer the question, but I will answer yours.

Yes. I however don't believe Republicans would be better on the issue (see above). So do you not vote also making you complicit because that shows you don't care, or vote for the lessor of two evils.

HOW will he stop the war. His biggest lever is stopping aid. As I've already discussed this is unlikely to stop Ukraine from fighting. It will just cause more of them to die, as they did when Republicans delayed aid before. Is it the right thing to let them be conquered? Like I'm confused how the Israelis invading Palestine is bad in your mind but Russia invading Ukraine isn't. In one of these we are supporting the invaders who are committing genocide and you disagree, but you are also disagreeing with supporting the defenders in the other. Some would say you have inconsistent standards. I also want you to game out this out. Trump wins and says he will stop Ukraine aid. Will that make Putin want more or less at the bargaining table? Have you see his current proposed "peace" plan? He is basically already demanding surrender. Do you think the Ukrainians would do so? Would you? If the US and the EU (highly unlikely) turned our backs on them I think they would continue to fight.

Nice try saying I am changing the subject while you, the would be king of red herring, have been trying to change the narrative all along. I have no love for trump and I am not about to defend him.

My point was and still is, fact based, under biden:
war in ukraine
genocide in gaza
20% increase in homelessness.

Now, unless you can prove trump has done worse (not if he can, or will).

I am voting for the lesser evil, trump ftw.

[Mjmd]

I mean I asked you a question directly relevant to what Trump said about a Biden Israel decision and you didn't answer. Am I supposed to not call you on deflecting? Just answer the question.

- I mean you haven't proven Trump could end the war in Ukraine nor addressed my arguments.
- You haven't given any definitive argument trump would change the situation for the better in Gaza. I've given ample evidence to suggest the opposite. You haven't.
- Remind me what the Republican plan is regarding homelessness is?

Again, you can say Democrats haven't done enough on these issues, but actually giving any kind of argument Republicans would do better you haven't been able to do. Now its possible this is a risk tolerance issue. IE you are hoping to win a lottery that you don't even know exists at incredible low odds. You are willing to bet a whole lot on not only these issues but other ones on evidently unfounded hope? I mean I'm not huge into lottery to begin with, but when I have to enter for an unknown prize, at bad odds, and I might have to pay a whole awful lot, well that sounds more like a scam than even a normally stupid to enter lottery.