Machinery is not a bad tech but we are making very little per turn and we have enough banked gold for one tech but that's that. The next tech will take 15+ turns at current rate so we can't afford to research things outside of the main and immediate priorities. Guilds, engineering, civil service, those are far too far away.
This is also why I share Williams's concern about the copper city. It's not worth the extra maintenance and it's not good diplomatically to have more cities as it may invite a dogpile. Even 15 was pushing it but we had to claim some important border land. If you want to settle something I'd go for the stone east of Yarrow as it has a sea oasis and silks to pay for itself. Filler cities can easily come later.
I actually don't think this map is conducive to much teching at all and Gav may already be gearing himself to stop teching altogether and just pump units. It's very easy to lose your cities and investment and it will probably mainly about fighting and diplomacy so you are on the right side of the 2+vs1s. But we do need those extra promotions as they act as a multiplier on our hammers.
However it's your game DZ and do what you like, I'm just sharing my thoughts so you are aware of the less obvious things while you are getting into it.
Thanks to all for your input. Since we seem to be cordially divided on some things, it really helped me hash out what I think will be a decent compromise for the short term. So, in brief:
Machinery is off the table for now. If we are looking for a Horcher deterrent, look no further than HBR itself. It's relatively cheap and unlocks War Elephants (a unit I encountered when I began my search for Gavagai's stack). This fulfills my need for an adequate complement to Dogs so we can start to rebuild our economy, and at the same cost as XBows. The tech also doesn't dig into our gold reserve as much.
Since I was able to play two turns without a consensus, I left us at 0% research with Reticuli put on wealth. I obviously don't want to keep this going forever, but figured it may be fine for a few turns so we can agree on a tech path. We've been averaging about 50 gpt and will have about 350g banked next turn.
After this, we take the Feudalism route, and I'm going to propose going Poly > Mono > Monarchy to get there. These will also come relatively fast and will allow us OR for Missionaries (and whip acceleration) and HR to buff CHA happiness with our strong defenses. The Med > PH path is obviously cheaper but doesn't provide us these immediate benefits. Plus I'd rather concentrate on getting as many expensive buildings as possible during the short window we stay in OR, especially since we won't have much opportunity to build many religious structures from the outset.
I've removed Settlers from the queue, as I agree with thrawn about becoming a target. Also, I missed the canal guidance entirely earlier so thank you for the reminder. The Galley is just outside of Maalor to begin picking up the stack next turn. I couldn't do this without tipping Magic off due to his culture, so we'll see what happens.
I exploited the wraparound turn to get a boomerang look at the SD city just west of Quayal and found a Longbow, Spear and 3 Horchers. Could be a defensive posture, but cemented my concern of our need for Jumbos. We have 3 spears in the area but I'd have to bring one from Morrig to help.
Fish ~ Fish went out to Magic and SD, while I had to settle for Corn ~ Corn for Drey and Gav since they lack Fish for trade. With that said, we actually have a legitimate trade to Gavagai for Fish ~ Crab but I didn't want to send that for appearances sake without consulting the team first in case Gav actually accepted it. Drey also has a surplus of Rice I can review for trade; one of the reasons I was going to settle the deer site was for the deer itself, but one of these trades would get us the needed health to grow some of our larger happy cities. But back to the main point, we'll get a chance next turn to see who returns the offers so we know where to best concert our efforts.
On a personal note, I am really grateful for the activity here. I wasn't lying when I lauded the opportunity to talk me out of certain things so please keep the comments coming. Despite thrawn's amazing recovery, we are still behind on many facets, but I think we have a formula for staying off of various lunch specials for the time being.
I took a screenshot of every city this turn, but I have to see if I can get Imgur to work properly. For some reason, I don't have a direct link to my Images folder. I'll see if I can get that going so you can review the micro I'm doing so far. If you have any solutions to this, or recommendations for other pic storage options, I'm all ears.
Hey all please check out the city review. I’ll add more details later but am runniing against a time wall. I’ve spoilered it so that the scroll isn’t so daunting later.
Mentar
I’ve decided that I really want the Moai here, so I’m starting on the Forge first. That will also make this a great pump for units across all of the northern frontlines.
Willow
I had to make the decision to further shun our beloved capital because it’s just not ready for prime time yet. I think it’s important that Mentar gets propped up for its objectives first since the available coastal tiles are so much better for the economy.
Morrig
Still decent growth here despite lending seafood to Mentar. Also 3 hills to mine here as we can definitely support the extra production. Workers from Quayal will come here soon, and a Courthouse whip is imminent.
Reticuli
Wealth here to hasten HBR research. Definitely the place to start balancing our troops with WEs too. Regrettably, I think we’ll need to put the Aesthetics path on the back burner for now since I really want to concentrate on Wealth and units here. LBs will be unlocked with 3 promos and Melles can fight their way there for now.
I think I may want to just go for Theo organically afterward since there's something to be said for the religious hammers from the Apostolic Palace. But we may be too late in the game for that. I’m always interested in Hagia too.
Fierias
As warned, I nixed the Settler here and put 2 new chops into a Courthouse. I’ll build these sparingly based on other need, as in most cases a Forge should come first. But there’s plenty of happiness here for the moment.
Sssla
I’m hoping the Library here will be enough to save culture. Otherwise we can look at other cultural boosts soon. Plus I want to grow this site like crazy for the extra commerce we’ll get without Worker assistance. This site is a great candidate for Globe though.
Quayal
I actually opted for the Totem Pole here, with decent overflow into the Granary. This will allow us to claim the Fish earlier, so I’ll whip the Granary at mid Size 2 to overflow into a Workboat. A Worker is building a road on the Corn, so that our hill chopper can move 1.5 to start work on it next turn.
This is also the site where SD looms with his Horchers. I’ll have a pic of that next post.
Whynil
Changed the Galley to a Courthouse here, but I’ll have to grow the city again to whip it.
Maalor
Growth next turn. Second pop will go to the forest so we can chop whip a Granary into a Totem Pole.
Yarrow
Eventual Cottage powerhouse assuming we keep it. I’m farming the city ruins here for extra growth.
Phyco
I’m not sure I realized that I left two killer tiles unworked, but they will return after Size 4 and our numbers will be the better for it. Thinking of farming the city ruins here too and we can cottage it later.
Proxima
This city has room to run, so off it goes. There’s great production to add here in about 10-15 turns if it caps out.
Obaca
Brought Sugar online on T124. Was not sure what to do here, but I figured another Archer wouldn’t hurt. I think I’ll start using the coastal tiles here once we hit Size 5 to help hasten Feudalism, keeping the 3 resources active of course.
Firma
Just staying the course with this city per thrawn. Maybe it can use the Sheep if Reticuli reaches a pop limit.
Herculis
Surrounded by rough terrain, I have a Worker deadheading to the Deer to work it. Huh, yeah screw the other Deer site for now (he just notices)
Mentar: You do plan to whip the forge ? Otherwise Moai should be faster. Okay, there is nearly 60p in the forge, but...
Morrig doesn't need to Fish - or Mentar needs the fish more.
Reticuli: I don't like workshops (and lumbermills). In my opionion, you need to put cottages on grassland. But yes, I fear this game could end in a big slog, where you need the production now. Apo is not bad, but still, when you need lumbermills and workshops instead of cottages, you don't really have time to built temple and monastries.
Quayal: Walls are not that expensive if you have stone. DO you whip the granary next turn ?
Whynil: Why do you want to work unimproved tiles over the 2 riverside cottages ?
Maalor: Maybe whip the totempole first ?
Phyco: Here, I can follow why you want to work the icefloodplain instead of another tile. - can you build something other than a watermill on the icefloodplain ?
Proxima: I would want to whip the catapult. Otherwise, maybe the courthouse first ?
Obaca: 3,6g are not much, but maybe here courthouse first too, if you have no idea ? Or a catapult. But yes, Proxima has no garnison, so an archer is not bad.
Firma: I think a bit culture here is not the worst idea. I don't think any tile is in danger of falling, but 1 culture in a bordercity is a bit low.
Did you reached the cap on city number maintaince ?
Edit: And I think you could need a few more workers.
And damm, this is rough to look at after my cities in the PB79. Okay, the PB79 is 25 turns later, but still.
- Mentar. Moai here is fine, I was 50/50 between it and Sssla. Doing forge first is the way to go too.
- Willow. Also fine to leave it undeveloped for an indefinite amount of time especially if you are doing the moai in Mentar. There is grass but it's not riverside so you are looking at 30 turns before it's better than plain coast and you have many better ways to invest your resources.
- Morrig. Courthouse could have been a 4-whip but not a big deal. This is a very flexible city so any direction you take it works.
- Reticuli. Wealth is fine and when Williams and I discussed whether Quayal was worth the gpt hit we thought it could be countered by wealth elsewhere. Also I considered the Schwedagon a wealth build too. However the religious wonders would probably be wasteful builds because they would be taking you in a direction you wouldn't be going otherwise and would take far too long to pay off. Also I disagree with xist about cottages here. This is a pure hammer city, commerce has no place in it.
- Fierias. If you are whipping the courthouse why not a 8->4 whip and then chop into small things/units instead for better anger management? Or you can use the chops for a wonder. Question - why are you working the lake here instead of Whynil where you'll get +1f from the lighthouse?
- Sssla. Library can be enough. Whip next but maybe 7->4 so you don't miss on working all 4 resources.
- Quayal. All good. I doubt SD will attack here.
- Whynil. I have to be critical here - not sure what you were aiming but working the 0/1f tiles is a very bad idea, especially if you are also building wealth in other cities. 1f≈2h if you are whipping so working the cottages and even the plain coast is strictly better than any of the three hammer tiles. Also, the lake should be worked from here as mentioned before.
- Maalor. All good.
- Yarrow. There is a halfway done plantation on the dye but I had to move the worker as a barb mace was coming.
- Phyco. Farming some grass is good if you don't intend to raze Gav's city soon, but maybe farm the non-river and cottage the river grass. Something to consider for the longer term is if you want to build forts to connect the lakes to one or boths seas in the east. Re the ice I was going to cottage it.
- Proxima, Obaca, Firma, Herculis - all good.
HBR is a fine tech. You get full KTB and I have been feeling the lack of a good two mover in the Magic war and when Gav settled next to Phyco. However not sure if you'll get that much from WE since they don't get defensive bonuses nor C1 from AGG and are significantly more expensive that spears while being even harder countered if you attack out.
Everything else looks good too, just the one thing I'd urge you is not to underestimate what vassalage+theocracy+HE in Reticuli will give you or to postpone them. To win this game you'll have to be proactive in wars and make sure you make good gains against whoever is dogpiled next. This means plentiful strong units. Barrage 3 cats, formation horchers, CR3 swords, formation WE's are all units that benefit greatly from that third promotion and you can have them out of the gate. And Reticuli can 1-turn anything with the HE.
Being the first turn(s), I had a feeling I’d miss a few things so thanks to you both for being vigilant. I'll reply to most of the main points here, but please reiterate your point if you feel I missed something important.
Micro
Whynil was indeed a blunder on my part and will be rectified next turn. I may keep the grassland forest going so we can 3 whip the Courthouse here, and then borrow back the Corn from Fierias to recover pop quickly.
Mentar needs to grow a bit first before I whip the Forge, but I’ll bringing on the Mine coast at Size 5 for a 2-whip. I may even delay further for good overflow into Moai, especially if we land OR at that time (will need a Missionary from Morrig to do it.)
For Quayal, I do think we’ll have time to get Walls before the WB if needed. I’ll whip the Granary in a couple turns with overflow once our food stores are about 40%, so we’ll be back to Size 2 just after we farm the Corn.
Proxima is maxing out on useful tiles, so it looks like I’m just in time for a 2-whip on the Catapult with overflow going into a Courthouse that can be whipped at Size 6.
I may whip the Archer in Obaca in a couple turns to parlay overflow into a Forge, especially with OR on the horizon.
Looking closer, I think Maalor may be better served by a Lighthouse after Granary, since it’s solely relying on the Corn for growth. So if that tile NE is a Lumbermill, we may have to lean on it for the time being.
We should be able to 3 whip a CH in Morrig next turn, bringing it down to Size 6. You likely won’t see me 4-whip too many things for now, as I’m expecting OR to do the heavy lifting on whips and we can grow into commerce in the meantime in most cases.
The lake tile in Fierias may have changed when I picked up the Corn. I don’t recall addressing the tile directly during play, but it’s an easy fix.
In Phyco, I hadn’t considered poking the bear re: Gavagai, but can take a look. I think only Terrace owners can farm non-river tiles before CS, and despite Corn present I wouldn’t mind an extra boost here in the short term.
Tech - the Cheap Route
Thrawn’s persistence has really got me re-thinking things a bit in terms of the tech queue. HBR will be first of course, but then I think we should go the cheap way for the next 4 techs as well. So….
HBR > Poly > Mono> Aesthetics > Lit?
I think we can delay Monarchy since we have adequate happiness in general which increases drastically as we add Forges. Hence we wait a bit for Feudalism but it will hopefully get discovered around the same time we complete Paya. We’d just need a Missionary for Mentar and Reticuli to make the Wonders happen as both will already have Forges by that point.
I think it’s worthwhile to revolt for just one civic in this case, but it will mean two things:
1. Planning a GP in a high food city by the time we get to Feudalism so we can switch to Theo > Vassalage and HR at the same time via Golden Age. We can even boost the selected city with different specialists since the GP type won't matter.
2. We’d need to burn a second turn of Anarchy for Confucianism to use OR.
So with Reticuli still having 2 unused Lumbermills and Gold/Stone benefits for Paya/Moai, do we delay OR after at least Aesthetics or skip it altogether with Theo and a GA planned? I still think it will be worthwhile for city building but cost analysis is not my strong suit.
That’s all for the moment. I'll be checking out the turn once I get the all-clear that Magic has played so we can check our inbox and see who our friends really are.
I didn't get many other screenshots last turn, but did want to show the newly-visible SD city near Quayal:
You can also see our power in relation to the others: ranging from 0.7 (Gavagai ) to 0.9. And Gav is parked on Currency with Magic working toward Construction. Oh and on T125 we moved into 4th place for whatever that's worth.
Other than that, I only grabbed the F1 screen so you can see our build queues. It's a bit building-heavy for now, but we can always turn on a dime if needed.
I've also been sorting the "toast" column for growth targets. I'd like to maintain an average of 4-6 pop increase per turn and will always review the 2-4 turn pop countdowns to see if more cities can be accelerated.
For T126, I want to make sure to inform you on the following:
Demographics
Scouting Report aka our roaming visitors and theirs.
Border Analysis - cultural and tactical
If you can think of anything else you'd like to see, let me know.
) to 0.9. And Gav is parked on Currency with Magic working toward Construction. Oh and on T125 we moved into 4th place for whatever that's worth.