[SPOILERS] scooter Expands the Empire Across the Sea

[Tarkeel]

Re: Iceland. I'd settle on the copper, but remember that iceplains are extremely worker intensive.

Re: Bingwar. There's no guarantee that Bing would accept a border adjustment if Yuri doesn't join in, and we doe have our hands pretty full with other plans, so I think I'd leave it on the table for now.

[Zed-F]

Bing just whipped another bunch of times… I have to think there is *something* going on there.

Maybe Bing has whipped enough to deter Yuris’s attack? Do we still have a caravel in the area that can see what he’s been whipping?

[Zed-F]

So, Bing *is* in a GA, and knows he’s under threat. He’s probably researching something he can use to boost his defenses, and upgrades are a thing. But they can also be expensive and inefficient. We might still have a window to do something now if we can surprise him, but it’s probably closing fast. Otherwise, we wait, bide our time, let Bing hurt his economy building defenses that won’t be super relevant down the line, and come back to this later… potentially with Frigates that can do naval bombardment.

[Tarkeel]

Worth noting that Bing spent an enormous amount of money on upgrades in PB72.

[scooter]

Yeah Zed-F's point is a good one - Bing keeps whipping during his GA which seems like confirmation something is definitely going on, even though another turn went by with no declaration.





Here's a look at what I've got in the area. Not shown in the screenshot is the extra Galley over by Yuris' Trireme. In total this accounts for 4 crossbows, 4 swords, and 1 axe all loaded up. This doesn't include the crossbow completing in Y'Ghatan. I have been holding most boats out of Bing's vision, but I made a decision.





I moved them up within range. This way I have the option, but not obligation, to go in next turn. Hell's Gut has had just 2 unpromoted Archers as recently as 2T ago. To answer the question - no I don't have a Caravel to check on the Bing/Yuris front primarily because I kept it around here so I could check the garrison. Cytosin Output has an Axe/Archer/Spear trio, also all unpromoted.


I guess let's see what another turn brings. But honestly, I think his culture imposing on my core is a real problem, and I'm less than 10T from Galleons, so I'll have pretty full control over the area to prevent any serious retaliation. In general though, from patrolling his coastline he just doesn't have much in the area that could feasibly reinforce, so it just looks pretty free to me. Capture gold would be nice too.





This is really looking good. The great news is it does seem like Cairo does not have Galley access. It also looks like this is kinda cross/round shaped, so it does look like we can fit a few good cities here. I didn't snap a picture (I will next turn), but at the S Island I found another seafood, so it looks really good too.





Here's the empire. Great Scientist #1 comes out of Ehrlitan next turn. Monarchy complete, and I'm sending workers over to the Wines at Li Heng as fast as I can - also completed another at Pale. Also have queued up a settler/galley in prep for Astro - will see a few more of those soon.


Finally, it does look like I'll be able to get into Vassalage by the end of GA which is great news. I'm swapping to OR/HR next turn, and then I'll go Vassalage at the end of this GA.

[Zed-F]

Good luck on the attack next turn, assuming we do go for it. Are you thinking amphibious attack or land troops for Hell's Cut? If it's an amphibious attack, I guess we start with the western galleys first to see how they fare before committing the eastern ones, just in case we do well initially and can also make a run at Cytosin Outpost.

Leaning into the PRO markets does seem like a good idea since we are expecting to found a bunch more cities soonish and having the economy ready to absorb the maintenance seems prudent.

Who is building a work boat for Outlook's fish? I don't see any sign of that at the moment. Granted, we do want the Galley and Settler prebuilds too.

Did Malaz City go ahead with the GPP plan? I see we are building a worker but that doesn't seem to align with building GPPs. Is the plan to produce GPs for the next GA out of Pale and Unta instead?

[scooter]

I think I may have to call it off.





Cytosin Outpost got Walls into the city which makes it very expensive to boat now, even with its weak garrison. Hell's Gut is still somewhat vulnerable, but crucially the window is closing. Bing just revolted to Vassalage which means he got to Feudalism first. He is saving gold right now. He won't have enough money for a longbow upgrade next turn, but he will the turn after that. In addition, he will start whipping them here shortly. He's also loaded up units from his mainland and put an Archer on that Galley, and he's adding another from Junkyard - emptying out both cities in order to do this.


(Also, there is a stealable worker on the Hell's Gut forest - he's headed to chop presumably.)


So, Vodka gives me a 50/50 chance to boat Hell's Gut with the 5 units that can hit it THIS turn. Of course, I have 4 more units that could land next to it on the forest. I'm almost positive I could take the city. The problem is it might cost me a lot, and the city would be culturally overwhelmed anyway. So I think I need to back off.


However, there is still a part of me tempted to take a potshot with one of my swords just to see if I get a good initial RNG, as my odds to boat it go way up with one good dice roll. That said, another good reason to back off is the scouting this turn.





Scout found a Fish on the southwest region of this island which makes for a very strong southern city. 3 cities here does look like the right call, and they should all be solid cities. The middle one is a little underwhelming, but it's OK because it's a crucial canal.


NOTE: I placed all dots in these 3 pictures VERY quickly with close to 0 thought just for illustration purposes. Please do not take them super seriously. The north and south cities my thoughts are literally just "first ring food and on a hill."





Meanwhile S Island looks fantastic with dedicated double seafood for both cities.





This looks really good too as this island should be able to fit 3 cities minimum with plenty of seafood. The only catch here is the seafood is setup to make border pops mandatory, and as was mentioned, the floodplains will be very worker intensive. But overall this looks really promising as well.



So with all of this in mind, I think I need to back off Bing and simply use the units to secure my borders - my military is #1 again - while repositioning boats to prep for Astro upgrades and ASAP colonization. I want these cities not just settled but fully online prior to other players having Galleons.


Any thoughts? I did not actually play the turn aside from scouting, so I can still take a Bing pot-shot if I want.

[Zed-F]

I think if we get Bing to panic and focus heavily on defenses now while we REX, that’s good for us the next time we come back to take a bite at this apple. We’ve invested very little in this potential attack (which was the correct call) but our timing didn’t work out; we would have needed to go in sooner. It seems like Yuris might reach the same conclusion you have, if Longbows are imminent, and potentially he didn’t bring enough mass for a fast raid given Bing’s whips.

I don’t know how valuable it would be to make threatening noises on the Bing border for a bit before going home to upgrade (however many upgrades we plan to do.) It would be nice to keep Bing heavily focused on defense now so that he becomes backward and easy pickings for a gunpowder-based attack later.

Otherwise I agree the scouting news looks good. Hopefully we can continue to find Astro-only lands to claim.

[scooter]

I think if we get Bing to panic and focus heavily on defenses now while we REX, that’s good for us the next time we come back to take a bite at this apple. We’ve invested very little in this potential attack (which was the correct call) but our timing didn’t work out; we would have needed to go in sooner. It seems like Yuris might reach the same conclusion you have, if Longbows are imminent, and potentially he didn’t bring enough mass for a fast raid given Bing’s whips.

I don’t know how valuable it would be to make threatening noises on the Bing border for a bit before going home to upgrade (however many upgrades we plan to do.) It would be nice to keep Bing heavily focused on defense now so that he becomes backward and easy pickings for a gunpowder-based attack later.

Otherwise I agree the scouting news looks good. Hopefully we can continue to find Astro-only lands to claim.

Yeah, this sort of sums up my feelings. Him rushing Feudalism meant he wasn't pursuing techs that would improve his commerce, and he also spent real portions of his second GA whipping - though Yuris surely had more to do with that. He's also probably about to burn gold on unit upgrades. This all has pushed him back significantly. I think it might be worth hovering this attack one more turn to force him to go through with all the whips he's surely about to do on my front, and then simply back off.


Also, yes, the cost is minimal. In fact, with a settling spree coming up, we are going to need more city defenders, and these units can do that just fine. Plus an HR revolt is coming soon. So I don't think it really cost much of anything. It did cost settling Black Dot which would have happened by now, but I think that's a minor cost given that that city is not very good anyway and will surely be much lower priority post-Astro anyway. It may be better off that I simply use that settler for S Island. Speaking of settling, I want to revisit this:

We're at 19 cities now, and we could add the following at minimum:


* 1 at Black Dot
* 1 at bridge island east
* 1 at Astro island east
* 3 at Astro island west


That would get us to 25 cities without any conflict which would feel pretty good.

We can revise this upward now. New estimate:


* 1 at Black Dot
* 1 at bridge island east
* 2 at S Island
* 3 at Astro island west
* 3 at iceplains island


This would push us to 29 cities peacefully, a +4 improvement based on scouting since the initial worst-case estimate. This would put us in a position to strongly preserve my lead and force other players to war in order to catch up. I think this is really ideal. Then it would just be a question of staying ahead on the naval tech curve in order to preserve our security. That way other players are forced to attack each other in order to grow, and I can play reactively. Or if one player emerges as my only competition, I could be in a spot to alpha-strike if necessary.

Who is building a work boat for Outlook's fish? I don't see any sign of that at the moment. Granted, we do want the Galley and Settler prebuilds too.

I actually swapped Aren to a Work Boat this turn. I should have caught this sooner. This is the best argument for backing off Bing - reallocating my focus to the domestic front.

Did Malaz City go ahead with the GPP plan? I see we are building a worker but that doesn't seem to align with building GPPs. Is the plan to produce GPs for the next GA out of Pale and Unta instead?

Yeah I didn't swap it off the worker, but it is running specialists. The city has so little production that the queue doesn't make a big difference at the moment. And yes, Pale/Unta for the other half of the 2-man GA is the general plan. That doesn't need to be a huge rush though. 2-man GA can wait a little bit - I think I want that to be after the settling spree. My thinking is 2-man GA is the one that attempts to win the game - use it to generate a 3-man GA and wrap it up with Taj or something. That's fuzzy and purely blue-sky thinking, but that is what is bouncing around the back of my head.

[Zed-F]

Seems reasonable, and I think it’s helpful that the rival we are pushing down to the bottom of the economy/score pack is the rival we can most easily take advantage of if someone else decides they have to take a run at Bing to catch up with us. Then we are in a good position to pile on, and much less vulnerable to being dog piled in return.

I’m hoping we will find more Astro-only lands south of S island (potentially requiring a choke point) that we could conceivably grab. I’d still like a few more queues to build wooden walls (later steel ones) in case SD or someone tries to organize a global dogpile later, even if it does seem like a low probability right now.