[PB78] Underdogs and undercats: The Mrrshan warlords visit the world of Civ IV

[williams482]

So it did attack! Ouch, scratch one cat. Have we known that, maybe a C2 cover sword would have been a good choice in the first stack?

I think you're right that SD is continuing to feel out a potential alliance against Gav, and highlighting the border situation with Phyco's lost corn. I am confused by the 100g and 2g sides though, as both seem like implausible turn timers or stack sizes. Perhaps the 2g is the number of defenders in Calcutta (which we can see for ourselves)? In which case SD is probably saying "why haven't you cleaned this up already?"

[Donovan Zoi]

So it did attack! Ouch, scratch one cat. Have we known that, maybe a C2 cover sword would have been a good choice in the first stack?

Nah, the Sword would have been demolished and the barb ChoKu would be left with more XP.  That Cat play worked exactly as I had intended under this circumstance.  In fact, when I played T131, the ChoKu had already improved from 1.7 to 3.8, and a new Archer joined the defense as well.


Which begs the question: Is Commodore dedlurking the barbs? 


EDIT: Also, of note -- the ChoKu didn't attack out in a 3 v. 3 scenario, and we also got a Worker as a parting gift.


In the end, we ended up taking out 7 units and losing only 1, which to me is well worth the 10h disparity between the two units.  We left the battlefield with all of our heavy hitters intact, though I'm really not happy having them all on defense right now.




We ended up getting 99g from the conquest, which will help our research of Priesthood and Monarchy.  Superdeath's presence brings about some challenges with his snooping Trireme and new city stealing our Fish for some odd but tasty desserts.  But I think we just need to let it slide for now and be happy with the extra ongoing gold we'll soon get from newly-named Draconis.

I think you're right that SD is continuing to feel out a potential alliance against Gav, and highlighting the border situation with Phyco's lost corn. I am confused by the 100g and 2g sides though, as both seem like implausible turn timers or stack sizes. Perhaps the 2g is the number of defenders in Calcutta (which we can see for ourselves)? In which case SD is probably saying "why haven't you cleaned this up already?"

That very well could be, but he may not realize that I'm aware doing so would put Reticuli at severe risk.  I am actually thinking of sending him a 50 turn Iron/Iron + Fish/Fish with no target to see if he agrees.  We both just started scouting each other's land, so that may be he best way to ease tensions.

Same for Dreylin, who we really don't have any easy designs on but can also be instrumental against Gav.  Drey just entered his Golden Age this turn and has his religion fully spread, so we may have a race to Paya on our hands. However, I'm not against 3-4 whipping Reticuli to secure the wonder -- we just added Inca to the list of research intel via EPs but I have no idea if he already has Aesthetics.

In other news, Gav also completed a 4-whip at the outset of T132, but doesn't have enough religion to warrant any competition.  I should find out what he got by T133.

[williams482]

SD is definitely going to get the fish long term, which is fine. We *should* keep both golds given that they are first ring. All in all hopefully this shouldn't be too bad of a border, especially if we don't put any extra effort into trying to reclaim the fish culturally. Convenient that we will be able to see into his city, and good for deescalation that nobody will be able to strike the other via boats from the fog.

[thrawn]

Good job with Shady. The fish was always going to be SD's. No point trying to claim it, but the way SD settled leaves him space for another city to the north for the crab and the wine, so see if you can settle 1S of the ice quickly and push culture there to secure the wine as this is the only source on the map. Interesting that the capture yielded only 99 gold. Sssla was about 220 I think and it was size 4 and captured over 20 turns ago.

SD's diplomacy is unclear, one other interpretation could be that he's willing to pay us 100 gold if we do the dirty work of razing. However getting SD and Gav in conflict is much more valuable to us than than 100 gold and a wheat so I'd just send SD a message with horse-horse and war with gav. Maybe also check Dreylin's intentions and communicate to SD that Dreylin will be joining too. I don't think the others are thrilled with Gav's stack either but you need to prod them a bit to get them to work against him rather than with him. And also check with Magic. (No idea what the 2 gold means, maybe that he'll lose the corn in 2? We can see into Calcutta from the stone hill.)

What are your plans for defence/garrisons of Draconis and Reticuli? Both need a good number of units (as do Sssla and all the other borders really...) and I definitely wouldn't count on Gav's good will for Reticuli. I wouldn't be comfortable with less than 10 spears, 5 cats and a few extra hitters in addition to the archers already there. And I wouldn't whip it for the Schwedagon - it's a weath built so in the worst case you still get capture gold while if you whip you lose a lot of hammers and the potential to whip units in an emergency.

[williams482]

Whipping wonders is also extremely inefficient: only 15h base per pop point. I'd strongly advise against it in any realistic circumstances, barring maybe a known tight race for an extremely valuable wonder.

[xist10]

I'm not 100% sold on the Schwedagon, but whipping wonders is not efficient.
I know not all wonders get the 15p. I think, there are a few with 20p and even a few with 10p.

It is general better to whip a unit for overflow - without a forge, axemen/spearmen are the classic unit (less than 5p, POP2 whip -> 30p overflow).
With a forge, I think catapults are the alternative.

[Donovan Zoi]

OK, got it. No more thinking aloud.

And yeah, that means no whip for the Paya. It was unnecessary brainstorming, as Reticuli is a slow grower as it is. But Xist has a point on the Paya itself, as we are spending quite a bit of production on a wonder that spares us two relatively cheap techs at the cost of building a military defense. I'm thinking the real prize of this path is the Heroic Epic and am considering starting it once we have Literature. In the meantime, I intend to put another turn into Paya but please feel free to weigh in over the next hour or 3 while I play the turn. I'm still fine getting the wonder and saving the tech turns. Plus it may be nice to have acess to Free Religion if it ever makes sense, though I believe our happiness surplus and military needs make it very unlikely we'll be able to warrant the switch.

[thrawn]

Definitely build the Paya. If someone else finishes it first, then consider it wealth at 1.75 multiplier vs 1.25 if you build wealth directly. And if you finish it, that's 258 raw hammers to save you 138 beakers from monotheism and 575 from theology while paying 50 more for monarchy compared to having mono. So that's 663 beakers or a 2.57 wealth multiplier even without considering the culture or GP benefits. This doesn't count KTBs but they won't be that much, nor paper but it comes much later, but even if you adjust for them you are still much better off doing the Paya instead of wealth.

[Donovan Zoi]

Turns 135-136 

Playing a wraparound turn between two 12 hour days.  Now that’s dedication!

You know the old adage about pictures, so here’s the equivalent of 16,000 with a few extra for context.  I felt I owe you a decent update and I’ve got more to report, but time to make the donuts...again.


Mentar




Moai build rushing to be completed for a huge GA boost.  I’ve sent 2 workers to build 3 Workshops on the coast, sailing them across to chop some hammers as well.


Willow




Nothing new here.  Maybe start slow building Spears soon?


Morrig




Starting the religion spread. I’ll have to nix all production to double whip some missionaries.


Reticuli




3 turns left for Shweddy. I ended up chopping the southern forest, losing the Lumbermill.  But I’m working on a mine right now.


Whynil




…But 8 turns to a GA.  I hated to choose this city to get there but it was the most primed with the proper buildings.  I am a bit concerned about the 5 turns between since everyone is going to know what we are using our new toy above for.  Discuss. 


Sssla




Will be able to 2-whip a Courthouse here next turn


Quayal




This is a city on the rise!  We’ll be bringing aboard the Fish AND the Stone next turn.


Maalor




This city got squeezed by Magic’s culture recently but it doesn’t even have a Granary yet


Fierias




Chop-whipped a Settler to build it organically and claim the Wine site.


Yarrow




Recovering from recent CH whip.  Works are building a road for that Settler


Phyco




Gonna 2 whip the Courthouse instead of whipping so we can start using the primo tiles.  More farms will be coming here soon since we lack a solid anchor tile.


Proxima




Thinking this will be a pretty good Spear parley pump since it lacks a Forge, but I may have already blown it by letting the build linger.  But the tiles are too good at a crucial time. I’m fine building it out a bit and 1-whip it.

Obaca




Slow building a Spear to likely whip into another.


Firma




Allowed this city to grow while production is maxed out next door.  I want to farm the two river tiles for now to boost growth for  unit production.


Herculis




I put in chop overflow into a CH before coming back to complete the Totem Pole.  I was to chop and farm the western forest once we claim the land and can move it to a Cottage later.


Draconis




Finally came online last turn, and is already hurting from CRE culture.  I’ll be double whipping the Spear to flow into a Library so can get back the other Gold.  Lighthouse is likely next.

[williams482]

Looks pretty good. But what does this mean?

Gonna 2 whip the Courthouse instead of whipping so we can start using the primo tiles.