Are you, in fact, a pregnant lady who lives in the apartment next door to Superdeath's parents? - Commodore

Create an account  

 
[PB81 Mjmd] Heave Away

Lets go over options. To note I'm assuming some basic micro of build a settler for 3 turns after worker, start work boat to get 2f in the foodbox, then when wheat finishes grow perfectly to size 2. 1st city goes to steal the wheat in each scenario and 1 pop whip a worker asap. 

1) Darius of India : pick agr > bw > AH. 4 forest chops into improving cow.
size 2 settler T23 followed by a T29 settler. Workboat out T30 but can't net until T33

2) Ok, lets try delay AH with imperialistic. Lets just say Victoria of India for no particular reason. I say delay AH, because I'll need fish up to split off to an earlier city. Still 4 chops.
size 2 settler T21, T22 work boat, T27 settler (revolt slavery maybe T28 depending on tech), T33 worker from 2nd city, T34 3rd settler finishes note with giving away fish asap. AH est T35 if go hunting first, don't save a ton of time by not going hunting and get to improve ivory perfect timing. 3 settlers and 2 workers by T34 seems broken and part of me wants to play this just for the funsies. But there is a question if its actually good. I have to most likely permanently split off the fish unless there is food conveniently there because there is no other way the T27 settler has a food to work.

With both the above I am using up 4 forests. If you ever test India it will always be faster, but usually because you are chopping a ton. This is certainly no exception. There isn't a lot of flexibility in settling spots as noted and roads are delayed for a LONG time. Instead of going hunting into AH for option 2 its very possible its correct go wheel first and just keep delaying the plains cow.

3) Lets try some fishing, hunting, agr civ and go for improving all the things and no chops. First thing I learn is I think I can probably do wheel instead of fishing, but could also open mining after AH and could do a mining civ and not do wheel, so opens up a ton. It is awkward as the worker runs out of things to do without wheel and a large chunk of the reason not to go India is instead to go wheel before mining. It is required to have both hunting and agr unless you want the worker either waiting a turn or skip hunting.
- T28 settler followed by a T34 settler. So 5 turns slower than the non imp India pick, but up 4 forests and have all the resources improved AND assuming take wheel have road network going and not as limited on settling spots.

4) Imp of hunt, agr, wheel. Note I'm not as high on fishing to go with, but could. I do think this start wants wheel instead of mining though. 
T27 settler followed by a T32 settler, can do two more 5 turn settlers.

Saying choose India for a mining / BW start or do a non mining civ eliminates Rome and Mali as good as both are. That leaves India and probably option 2 although it may be my only chance to do Darius of India so makes me want to do #1. #3 could go with America or Zulu. I'm more tempted to do America if I like this option as #3 would almost certainly be creative and I do want to break America again. #4 would be probably just be Zulu and pick either imp/org or imp/fin on the way back. If both get taken I'm just back to #3 but not America so not the end of the world. 

I do love me fast India starts. Playing with regular workers after playing with India fast workers always feels bad. Both #1 and #2 have things I want to do. #3 has things I want to do. #4 more standard and safer, but still pretty fast. I just did fun Neb, so playing something more normal in a more competitive environment isn't something I'm opposed to. I like having wheel for #3 & #4, but India is a hell of a drug. And now I'm just going in circles.
Reply

1) Does being Darius put too much of a target on my head especially with a fast start? Also, hate the lack of roads with the accelerated start.
2) Still tempting because that speed is ludicrous, but is guarantee stealing a fish worth it? I might still with all these options, but it gives less freedom to share the wheat later. Also, the speed might be too ludicrous. There is a risk of leaving this out there for someone else to do. The forest hill ivory almost has to be for everyone even if other things are different (unless greens got banana forest).
3) Finally getting America banned or changed. OOOO its tempting. But again on a vets continent is it too much of a target (a la playing Byzantium in a game where it isn't banned or playing Darius). Scooter got 2v1 playing America and he isn't a slouch. Now its not great that the main reason not to play a civ is you are likely to get 2v1 because its so broken, but there it is.
4) Its still fast and could be scary, but its also the most prickly. Also, hopefully vets understand that imp does fast cities. I'm constantly shocked at how many people don't understand this and don't realize imp does little else and declare an imp player clearly the winner on T75. It also hedges against the map size as its good on any size. #1 is good if the map is bigger. #2 is good if the map is smaller (like seriously I think I could turn 50 chariot rush someone real good) or just make sure I get all the contested spots on every border. #3 is also better on a larger map if I chose America. #4 will be good no matter the size.

I played it fun in PB75 (after having Tarkeel roll when I wanted to chicken out). I thought about doing that here, but I think this time due to the game variant I'm going to go safe and go Zulu. Plus I didn't have a definitive goal going into this. I wonder if in the future I should just 1st post state what I'm going to do so I don't waffle as much. I still get to waffle between imp/org or imp/fin. If both are taken I'll switch back to #3 but with Zulu and either cre/org or cre/fin, which will still be fine and not as likely to draw a 2v1.
Reply

ZULU we love to see it smile can't wait to vicariously live through you when the time inevitably comes for impi shenanigans nod
Reply

I played Zulu both for PB65 and PB66. As I stated above I went into PB75 stating I would play Neb, but almost backed out and left it to a roll by Tarkeel. A different roll and I would have taken Zulu that game as well.

I do think random block would provide more variety in these games and help get people out of their comfort zones; however, for this game snake is probably better.
Reply

(October 10th, 2024, 20:43)Mjmd Wrote: I do think random block would provide more variety in these games and help get people out of their comfort zones; however, for this game snake is probably better.

For a small game I think having a round of ban-picks would do wonders. Everybody gets to pick a civ (or leader) they find unfun which can't be played for that game. Extra fun if the picks are made in secret.
Playing: PB74
Played: PB58 - PB59 - PB62 - PB66 - PB67
Dedlurked: PB56 (Amicalola) - PB72 (Greenline)
Maps: PB60 - PB61 - PB63 - PB68 - PB70 - PB73 - PB76

There are two kinds of people in the world: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data
Reply



Well lets do analysis by continent as that is important context.

Less experienced (note order of snake but I shifted the mids and myself only; all the rest in given order not in skill order):
Greenline: Wang Kong (PRO/FIN) of Persia - I forgot to mention this, but pro does gain when you only have a 4 player island and you'll see it as a theme on this continent. Great leader pick IF IF IF he can keep up in expansion. Is on the less experienced island so may have gone into this pick and you know what I like that. I'm guessing Persia was partly a tech choice and partly wanting a civ that did something both UU and UB. Chariots that get defensive bonuses are a fine thing and Persia UB isn't a slouch. Hell Amica won a game just on its trade routes.
Xist: Tokugawa (AGG/PRO) of Sumer (Vulture/Ziggurat) - World where Toku gets picked most games crazyeye  . Listen I like protective, but even though agg is MUCH better, its still not my cup of tea. HOWEVER, it does hedge the Sumeria pick a bit, although I don't know if I like that. IE Sumeria wants room because they don't want to be axed. Aggressive wants to be in closer conflict.
Giraflorens: Qin Shi Huang (PRO/IND) of India (Fast Worker/Mausoleum) - This is very good IF IF IF he can pull of the micro. The is actually one of the better industrious pairings you can do. Pro helps you're early tech so you can get the wonders you want. Ind India yells Stonehenge for sure, but world is his oyster after that. Great Lighthouse with protective also very good here.

Where ya going to be (Tarkeel hinted 2 were on the fence and guessing these 2):
Dreylin: Willem (CRE/FIN) of Rome (Praetorian/Forum) - I'm surprised he didn't pick Zara. The financial makes me think he thinks he will be on the less experienced continent (although with Gav questioning its entirely possible not everyone is thinking the same way). But this pick will do well either continent. Sure its very slightly better with Zara on the experienced continent, but that is what creative Rome is for. People also think of Rome as an attack dog, but it plays just fine as "don't touch me" and creative Rome doubly so.
Superdeath: Catherine (IMP/CRE) of Byzantium - Here is someone who thinks he will be on the less experienced continent. BTW when I suggested Byzantium banned I meant IF ANY acceleration, but Tarkeel just took as IF worker & tech. I didn't catch it and that is on me, which is why I didn't hold up the picking when I saw. Imp can basically do the 2 pop settler pumping I was going to do as India and not get too hurt thanks to free tech. Do a knight b-line. On the surface a solid plan. Here is the thing. The vet continent can handle this. I'm also confused about the creative part of this as you need to be able to afford to get to knights. Honestly ye olde imp/pro would have worked well here.

Note whomever does end up on the less experienced continent SHOULDN'T get trade routes if people are smart. Its the less experienced continent though, so probably still will.

More Experienced:
Naufragar: Boudica (AGG/CHA) of Portugal (Carrack/Feitoria) - Is the plan swords / maces of Carracks? Is it "don't hit me bro until I'm off to the astro islands / continents?". Is there a plan? I joke, because I am sure there is and I'm excited for it as long as its aimed not at me. I'm not as down on Boudica as a lot of people, but then again I played with Cornflakes in PB63 when he built a stellar Boudica economy. Mind its Cornflakes, but still its possible, cha is good.
TBS: Pericles(CRE/PHI) of America (Navy SEAL/Carnegie Public Libary) - "Heh I'm going to be ganged up on anyway, I might as well double down and do it on hard mode". As the only person who has won with America I continue to tell people they don't need phil, but everyone picks Pericles. SIGH. They want to like super uber loopy duper crazy break it. Just playing the super uber crazy broken thing is fine enough. I am sure there is something crazy broken planned here. That is the weakness of passing America; someone else gets to have it.
Mjmd: Julius Caesar (ORG/IMP) of Zulu (Impi/Ikhanda) - boring good stuff is good. I did ALMOST switch to Zara as snack pick was coming back. Its guaranteed 2/3 of my competitors are creative and the other gets cheap monuments. I do like Zara if the map is BIG as well. But Imp will do well on a smaller and medium size and taking good spots away from Drey/SD & TBS seemed important nod . I plan to not contest Nauf IF I can help it. Note: No one on experienced continent is protective and with TBS around I'm assuming I can find one trade partner and my current pick is Nauf if possible.
Reply

Kind of surprised you didn't pick Shaka (AGG/EXP) with Zulu; half-cost Ikhanda is nice, C1 Impis are fearsome, and EXP is in a really good spot with the current circumnavigation version.

(October 13th, 2024, 21:45)Mjmd Wrote: BTW when I suggested Byzantium banned I meant IF ANY acceleration, but Tarkeel just took as IF worker & tech.

Not entirely true; I did explicitly bring up banning Byzantium in the setup thread. Nobody gave any public feedback on it, including you. I'm a mapmaker, not adjucator.
Playing: PB74
Played: PB58 - PB59 - PB62 - PB66 - PB67
Dedlurked: PB56 (Amicalola) - PB72 (Greenline)
Maps: PB60 - PB61 - PB63 - PB68 - PB70 - PB73 - PB76

There are two kinds of people in the world: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data
Reply

While if you are going to pick agg Zulu is one of the better picks, I'm still not a fan of agg. I've played once for funsies and I may do so again, but I don't think its a serious trait still (although as its picked most games now a lot of people disagree). I am surprised no one took exp with the extra tech; that was one of the broken things on my radar. For me it was needing every single worker tech combined with that plains hill forested ivory making imp be very good.

You are the game organizer as well, but yes it is partially my fault (and all the other players). I think I read your tech thread post fast when I was on my phone and just did a quick mental checklist of "this has been taken care of" without actually fully reading, which led to me never looking back at / responding.
Reply

I'm not sure you picked a tech; if you did I missed it. Could you please let me know what you want?
Playing: PB74
Played: PB58 - PB59 - PB62 - PB66 - PB67
Dedlurked: PB56 (Amicalola) - PB72 (Greenline)
Maps: PB60 - PB61 - PB63 - PB68 - PB70 - PB73 - PB76

There are two kinds of people in the world: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data
Reply

Tarkeel: Zulu without AGG is a bit meh.
Mjmd: AGG is a bit meh.

Synthesis: Zulu isn't good enough. Pick something else with Julius.
Reply



Forum Jump: