American Politics Discussion Thread

[Mjmd]

Lets be clear Trump is likely to be MUCH worse on Gaza. This one is pretty certain. Its the future so not 100% but its about as close as you can get. I mean how do you square Republicans pushing for more funding for Israel? I've been avoiding this because Biden does clearly have blame being the president, but those bombs have a lot of Republican votes and pressure behind them. Just ignoring this and future consequences if that party and a president so blatantly pro Netanyahu gain power doesn't make sense.

Less certainty on Ukraine. How would Trump stop the Ukraine war? Most likely by not giving aid. If we stop aid will Russia want more or less? More, the answer is more. And mind you Russia's current demands basically equate to a surrender. Will Ukraine be willing to give up basically everything? Seems unlikely. It would also require Europe stop sending aid and just letting Russia win. So either Europe continues sending aid but more Ukrainians die since less overall aid or Europe backs down as well basically forcing Ukrainian surrender (which seems unlikely but COULD happen). Seems like this will just lead autocrats being more willing to launch wars because they think the West will back down again. Appeasement will surely work this time! This will surely lead to less wars in the future! Peace in our time!

What about accountability for the future? What about accountability for trying to overturn an election. How will you hold accountability in the future if our democracy falls. ANSWER THAT.

[Charr Babies]

What about accountability for the future? What about accountability for trying to overturn an election. How will you hold accountability in the future if our democracy falls. ANSWER THAT.

Yada yada

Never mind accountability in the future, what about  now? If the current regime has no accountability, voting for the same regime means no accountability in the future. How can such simple logic escape you!?

Many of us already know our democracy has already failed. Maybe that's why there is no accountability now.

What about accountability for trying to overturn an election

WTF have you been? He is being charged. And, if he is found guilty there will be consequences. Hello!?!?!?!?!?  

So, lets talk accountability for the genocide.

Critical thinking, even just a little bit, please.

[Mjmd]

I can't win this argument so I'm going to say "yada yada".

Our democracy isn't perfect, but it is still there.

Because if he becomes president he won't order the justice department to drop the charges? Its not like the supreme court has given presidents almost King like immunity in direct contrast with the whole idea of "no more kings". Voting is the last resort. If we can't vote to preserve the transfer of power via accountability via voting we have lost.

Again, ignoring the history and likely consequences will be deadly. Depriving ourselves of all future accountability is foolish. Is 1 instance of accountability worth ALL FUTURE ONES. YES OR NO. Especially when the alternate will very likely increase the amount of suffering. So congrats you get accountability for this 1 thing, increase suffering, and lose all future accountability. That doesn't make sense.

You keep ad hominin my critical thinking skills. I'm breaking out my logic in multiple different ways. You are going "yada yada". Its quite a contrast. Please explain your critical thinking skills of ignoring the likely increased death rates from a Trump presidency in this issue you say you care about. Please explain how this one instance of accountability is worth losing all future chances of accountability. This is what you have to do to prove your point. Not just disparage your opponent and keep making the same cherry picked argument ignoring everything else.

[Charr Babies]

You are going "yada yada".

Because you keep reiterating the same flawed logic and missed that I've already given you my answer.

WTF have you been? He is being charged. And, if he is found guilty there will be consequences. Hello!?!?!?!?!? 
So, lets talk accountability for the genocide.

Again, the same about accountability.... sigh
What you are saying is you don't care about our justice system that trump would be punished IF HE IS FOUND QUILTY
You are saying he should be hung without a fair trial. 

You ignore accountability for genocide THAT IS HAPPENING AS WE SPEAK
You'd rather prosecute thought crime, what trump might do in the future.

The dead will stay dead, OMFG!

[Mjmd]

What is your answer? Accountability for this 1 thing over ALL future accountability. With out regard to future suffering? Please let me know if I'm missing something. As bad as this 1 issue is (which is why I suspect you are using it as it is valid even if I don't think you actually care), the future of this issue and our country also have to be taken into account.

I'm not saying he should be hung without trial. I'm saying he should never be president again because its VERY dangerous. I'm saying the idea that you can overturn an election and no one cares is VERY dangerous.

I would rather reduce the overall amount of suffering yes. Yes its not 100% that Trump would increase suffering and death, but its 98%. But please do explain how his statements would indicate he would be better. Explain how the Republican party requiring aid to Israel in order for aid to Ukraine to go through makes you think they will be less likely to keep sending bombs? Democrats were the ones that added the riders for humanitarian aid being part of that package.

Is my concern for the future not relevant?

[Charr Babies]

What is your answer? Accountability for this 1 thing over ALL future accountability. With out regard to future suffering? Please let me know if I'm missing something. As bad as this 1 issue is (which is why I suspect you are using it as it is valid even if I don't think you actually care), the future of this issue and our country also have to be taken into account.

I'm not saying he should be hung without trial. I'm saying he should never be president again because its VERY dangerous. I'm saying the idea that you can overturn an election and no one cares is VERY dangerous.

I would rather reduce the overall amount of suffering yes. Yes its not 100% that Trump would increase suffering and death, but its 98%. But please do explain how his statements would indicate he would be better. Explain how the Republican party requiring aid to Israel in order for aid to Ukraine to go through makes you think they will be less likely to keep sending bombs? Democrats were the ones that added the riders for humanitarian aid being part of that package.

Is my concern for the future not relevant?

See, that's the thing about your version of accountability - PASS THE BUCK 
Hello!? Biden and the gang is in charge. They take all the credits, and the blames. That is accountability.
You can say whatever you want to fool the public, it is the actions that counts. When your actions contradict with you words, you are a liar!

See, that's the thing about your version of accountability
Ignore and excuse what's happening now; judge and execute thought crimes based on some funky math.

Hopeless

[Mjmd]

So is your answer is to ignore everything else? To give up on future accountability and not care about the likely consequences? Again, I can go through why this doesn't make sense. Is that your argument? I need a clear concise answer to try to avoid going in circles.

Just to clarify my argument is that accountability for trying to overturn an election has to come first. It has to or there won't be any chance for accountability in the future. If Trump were 100% better on this and every other issue it wouldn't matter. He very clearly isn't, which makes it all the more illogical, but even if he was our democracy HAS TO come first. We can look back at historical situations of triple digit inflation and double digit unemployment. We can look back at bad things happening in other countries when their democracies failed. Is the short term fix (assuming it was) worth what they gave up in the long term?

[Charr Babies]

So is your answer is to ignore everything else?

Cute trying to turn the table around. No, that's you. You are ignoring what is happening now. Now is when genocide is happening. Now is trump not convicted for overturning the election. If you have no faith in our justice system, you are only talking out of your a$$ about our democracy.

To give up on future accountability and not care about the likely consequences? 

Maybe you have clairvoyance or some kind of voodoo that you feel so supreme to judge and execute thought crime. 
Bottom line, the consequences are, we are $35 trillion in debt with homeless people all over our cities; AND GENOCIDE. These are the consequences!

Yes, I know we have very different moral standards. I value life!

[Mjmd]

I am not ignoring it. I am saying do you really think there will never be another time where accountability will be required? Is this one time worth all the others? If we turn into an autocracy what will you do next time accountability is required? And the next. And the next. And the next. That is the reason I argue its above everything else. Every election there are issues we think are wrong or should change. Every single election. But if those elections stop mattering then what are the chances that we the people can get things changed and hold the powerful accountable? That is gone.

I play the odds. You tell me which party pushes Israel aid more. You tell me which party wanted to pass a standalone Israel aid bill and which party wanted to include more humanitarian aid. Compare what the candidates are saying and tell me who sounds worse on this issue. Seriously please answer these. Its not "judging thought crime". Its looking at the most likely scenario and trying to save the most lives. Answer me a hypothetical question. IF Trump ends up worse will you commit to admitting you were wrong? Its very likely. Again, answer all the above questions as well. If this is truly the 1 issue you care about, it makes no sense to ignore everything else but assigning blame to the person who isn't even the president atm.

You aren't accounting for any future life or the future of our country and instead are cherry picked focused on this issue in isolation. I've admitted its POSSIBLE emotionally to understand that, even if it isn't logical. If I want less people to die in the future that means I care about life shockingly. STOP doing ad hominins. You do it every other post.

[Charr Babies]

My argument is fact based, undeniably what is happening now.
Your argument is based on conjectures with your funky math.

Enough said.