Should Famous retort be removed or replaced?

[GMBarak]

This retort in my opinion is very weak compared to other retorts, especially the fact that heroes offering to join are of higher level, because many times when a lower level hero offers to join you you want to kill them to prevent them from re-offering to join you and the higher level is giving you a much higher hiring cost, a sort of fine, a penalty for finding this jinxed retort instead of a useful one.

[Zypher]

I agree that it on it's own is a quite weak one. But if you combine it with Charismatic it can acually be a really nice one as you don't need to sit on a bank of 1000 gold all the time incase you get offered a good hero or good mercenaries.

Getting highlvl mercenaries combined with the possibility of getting better heroes can make for really nice games as it can give you quite good starts and you're able to clear nodes early on or take on enemy wizards with a merc-stack. It is though a retort that can vary alot in what you get for it and therefor you can't make a clear play around it like you can with many other retorts. I still think it's a fun retort to play combined with charismatic.

I wouldn't want to see it removed unless there is a valid option for it.

[GMBarak]

So, if on it's own it's less valuable, maybe combine it with charismatic to a 2 picks retort?

[Zypher]

So, if on it's own it's less valuable, maybe combine it with charismatic to a 2 picks retort?

That can absolutly work, for me I never pick Famous if I don't intend to pick Charismatic as well anyway so.

[RefSteel]

So, if on it's own it's less valuable, maybe combine it with charismatic to a 2 picks retort?

That can absolutly work, for me I never pick Famous if I don't intend to pick Charismatic as well anyway so.

Hmm ... can Charismatic be a valid/good/interesting pick without Famous though? And if so, would it help (and is there a way) to make Charismatic a pre-requisite for Famous the way a number of books of one type is a pre-req for certain other retorts? (If Cha is likewise good only with Famous, presumably merging them into a two-pick retort would indeed help!)

[WingsofMemory]

Charismatic is the signature retort of one of the base wizards, Ariel. (Or at least was, I can't remember Caster of Magics ruleset.) I wouldn't want it removed or replaced even if only for that reason. I think that merging Famous under it might be a good idea though. If I recall correctly famous isn't tied to any of the base wizards.

If I were to think of a justification for keeping both, it would be adding more to differentiate them.

Fame as a mechanic reduces mainly reduces unrest if I remember correctly? What could Charismatic do differently, as there is a good argument to be made that a Charismatic leader would also reduce unrest in their empire.

Fame also reduces unit upkeep right? A charismatic leader could also be argue to do that as well by inspiring more volunteerism?

Maybe Charismatic could help with unit recruitment? Make normal units slightly cheaper to recruit or something? That could synergize well with life magic, and that's the wizard it starts attached too? Or maybe Charismatic could increase tax yields or something, I don't know.

Any thoughts? Am I way off base?

[Zypher]

Charismatic is the signature retort of one of the base wizards, Ariel. (Or at least was, I can't remember Caster of Magics ruleset.) I wouldn't want it removed or replaced even if only for that reason. I think that merging Famous under it might be a good idea though. If I recall correctly famous isn't tied to any of the base wizards.

If I were to think of a justification for keeping both, it would be adding more to differentiate them.

Fame as a mechanic reduces mainly reduces unrest if I remember correctly? What could Charismatic do differently, as there is a good argument to be made that a Charismatic leader would also reduce unrest in their empire.

Fame also reduces unit upkeep right? A charismatic leader could also be argue to do that as well by inspiring more volunteerism?

Maybe Charismatic could help with unit recruitment? Make normal units slightly cheaper to recruit or something? That could synergize well with life magic, and that's the wizard it starts attached too? Or maybe Charismatic could increase tax yields or something, I don't know.

Any thoughts? Am I way off base?

Charismatic I don't think need any real change as it's a good one on it's own and the benefits from it are definitly good enough for one pick. Better relations to other wizard are a great trait and specially on higher difficulties it can be saving you in many games.  Even without the bonus of cheaper mercenaries/heroes/items it's very good. If any, when I look at Charismatic and Famous together, I would say that Charismatic is worth 1.3-1.4 picks while famous is worth 0.6-0,7 picks. But ya, mixing them together would make for a balanced and good 2 pick retort. 

I can definitly play with charismatic without taking famous, but I don't play famous without taking charismatic as well.

[Anskiy]

Imo if the intent of Famous is to facilitate hero strategies, then Tactician's bonus would be better served on it. Or maybe it could provide a free pre built Colosseum, to lean into the idea of the wizard already having built a name for themselves. Besides that, not sure what could be done, short of raising the initial Fame granted even higher, which would help but also be a rather clunky solution.

[Suppanut]

I think either Famous merging with Tactician (emphasis on hero) or Merging with Charismatic (emphasis on transaction) would be good. Famous on its own seem incomplete for me.

[mewcatus]

Famous just needs additional bonuses to be more attractive. Like give spell cost reduction bonuses to 'Summon Hero' and 'Summon Champion' for example. Also Famous is a money hungry retort, so giving a way to earn gold also helps that in a way.