[NO PLAYERS] 82nd Airborne Dropping in to Lurk

[RefSteel]

An example of a map we'll not be using:

   

After the first was poorly shaped and so couldn't accomodate well-spaced players, the second pangaea I rolled with the settings Cornflakes suggested somehow included the above ... lovely? ... astro island. If you check the minimap, you can also see the mainland that looks something like a dinosaur standing hungrily over this ... delicious? ... land. I somehow felt this wasn't what the players were looking for....

The third map looked lovely, but had two major problems, one of which was again that water would be too important. The fourth looks promising though if the players are sold on these settings and remain with only four. (Or for that matter if they back-pedal and want fewer land tiles per player but get a fifth to join.) I'll post it if it looks like that's what we're going with after all.

[RefSteel]

Okay, here's what I've got, after a small but perhaps-sufficient series of edits:

Start A:

   

Start B:

   

Start C:

   

Start D:

   

[EDIT:  Removed the WBSave since it's been superseded; see below.] I'll try to get more pictures up later, but at least wanted to get this up for now in case there are immediate comments or thoughts.  Thanks in advance for any opinions!

[RefSteel]

Regional views from Worldbuilder:

Around Start A:

   

Around Start B:

   

Around Start C:

   

Around Start D:

   

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

It's really frustrating how much better the Civ IV map is than the VI one. You can actually see mountains on it! For whatever reason, the devs in their wisdom stripped this ability from the minimap in VI, so all you see is plains/grassland/desert/tundra and maybe if there's a forest or not.

[xist10]

Towards the map itself:
C and D need to combat tundra barbs.
C and B should have more space to expand than A.
D has like C the tundra, but nothing really good there.
Especially because there is no coastline for fishing villages.

A and C have copper in the backline (C atleast Iron at the Cap).
C and D no stone nearby - and no marble on the map ?!

From the starting positions itself, I don't like B. Floodplains are no real replacement for a food ressource.
A seems to have the best, but the others are not that different, especially with the later starting age.

[RefSteel]

Thanks for the notes, xist10! Some of them seem beyond the scope of changes the players asked for, but I'll see what I can do within those limits.

On the starting positions: I've moved B slightly and changed a couple of tiles so it only has two FPs and the Stone is out of its BFC but it has access to an additional dry corn. It can still move back to basically the same place it started if the player wants, at the cost of a turn and a forest (and no longer having the corn) but now would also gain a plains hill plant that way instead of the reverse:

   

I also moved the stone out of Start A's BFC, so everyone has uncontested access to stone but no one has it in their starting city unless they move. It turns out there is exactly one Marble on the map, by the way, buried in the antarctic ice near Start D. If you think it's important, I can add more somewhere....

Considering the distances involved on this map, I don't think backlines copper should be an issue either way, but let me know if you disagree! I moved a couple of seafood tiles around too in case this helps make D's expansion area more valuable relative to C. The tundra barbs for both are a good point, but I don't know what to do with them without making far more radical changes to the map than the players asked for.

Really the question is, do any of the positions look doomed to an unfun game? I think there may be enough compensations for the difficulties each position will have to make them all playable, but I haven't actually tried them out and haven't looked as closely as I would have if I were building the map instead of just strategic-resource-checking it, so please let me know if any of the issues are too big to be left as-is!

It's really frustrating how much better the Civ IV map is than the VI one. You can actually see mountains on it! For whatever reason, the devs in their wisdom stripped this ability from the minimap in VI, so all you see is plains/grassland/desert/tundra and maybe if there's a forest or not.

One of my favorite things about the Civ4 worldbuilder is that it generates (and the game can then load) human-readable text files. I don't have Civ6, but I'd happily mapmake for it anyway if it were set up like Civ4, where all you need is a text editor and an example map to work from.

[RefSteel]

[EDIT: Removed superseded WBSave; the final version is posted below.]  I'll post the screenshots shortly, rolling...

Scooter:  Start B
Yuris:  Start A
Cornflakes:  Start D
Commodore:  Start C

[xist10]

Generally the Worldbuilder in cIV is great.
Backline copper is something I do check in most cases. And even at at least 17 tiles distance, this is smaller than my distance to Aetryn in the PB72 and I think backline or not was a small point there - okay, that map was very interesting, but not a good MP map without a carefull reposition, I think.

Here I concur, the map seems to be fun to play.


But I don't like that there is only one marble. Everyone should have (contested) access or nobody.
In CtH the prod bonus is not as important than in BtS, but still. We had on CF a game (PB91), where only one player had access to stone and this game was a disaster in more than one aspect.

Generally, I don't like uneven access to strategic ressources - which includes stone and marble.
This reminds me, coal, uran, alu, oil seems fine.

In this case, I think I would remove the marble deep down in the ice.
I do think you could let it be - there should be no good city position, or ?
But it's easier to remove for "fair" access than add marble for the others.


In the end, I have a bit of misgiving on the northwestern part of the map - at a second luck, B seems to be a bit squeezed - but I think, the map seems to be fine with the small change to B start position.

[Mjmd]

Sorry I meant to look at this earlier then kept forgetting / falling asleep. I also think B is a little sqeezed. I kind of just want to sink everything in SW tundra peninsula as start C seems to have the most land, but maybe double check it through the balancing tool. I've never done it through the tool but maybe moving and flipping the SW tundra peninsula to B to give B more room would work?

Its too late, but I don't like the gold at Yuris capital. Also, he can move 2N to a plains hill getting double corn one of which is wet.

[RefSteel]

Thanks very much for the feedback! I'll think about making some small changes that might help with some of your observations. But ... small changes. I'm not surprised you don't like A's gold, MJMD (although I think moving to a plains hill from that start would be a mistake) - because you like a balanced map with balanced start positions, and that start ... isn't that. These players were quite clear in telling me what not to balance: If a start is too poor, improve it to average/decent. If a start is too good, leave it. Don't make the map (outside of the starts) too lush. Make sure the players are neither too close nor all strung out to give one (or more) player(s) just one neighbor (apiece) but if different players have better access to land than others, leave it - partly as an experiment to see if the weird settings will sort it out. (You should have seen the original map roll, by the way: Start D was further East and a little North, and Start C was up on the coast of the northwest peninsula, leaving the entire southwest of the map empty! I moved them both in accordance with the changes the players did want. Oh, and Start D as rolled had no Game tile; just a grass cow and plains cow for "food.")

So if there's anything that's going to make the game a drag or a chore for one or more of the players, I'd like to correct that. If there's something critical I missed that they asked for, that's important too. If it looks like it'll be a fun map to play on - for crazy players who want a big element of randomness in their map, within reason - we're good to go.

Generally, I don't like uneven access to strategic ressources - which includes stone and marble.

True - the game interface says so itself - but neither stone nor marble is required to build any building or unit. A player without Iron can't build Pikes, Knights, Swords, or X-bows at all. Without Copper, you need an expensive-at-Classical-game-start tech before you can even find out where a resource is that will let you build the Axes and Spears that others can build as soon as their copper city is down. Without Coal, you can't effectively industrialize until Plastics and can't build railroads until Fission. Without Marble ... a small number of buildings that can each be built only once apiece will cost more hammers to build. I normally like to balance marble, but it's not in the same category as the "real" strat resources to which the players wanted to ensure access here.