[PB81] New Variant Game: A Tale of Two Continents

[Mjmd]

Yes the obvious thing banned by default should remain banned.

[Dreylin]

I’m happy to go with community consensus.

For clarity though, are we saying that all gold-gpt deals must pay back at least the total sum gifted; so 1000gold for 100gpt is OK, but 1000gold for 80gpt is not? What if a resource is included, would that make it OK, or does the resource have to have demonstrable value to the person giving it?

[xist10]

For clarity though, are we saying that all gold-gpt deals must pay back at least the total sum gifted; so 1000gold for 100gpt is OK, but 1000gold for 80gpt is not? What if a resource is included, would that make it OK, or does the resource have to have demonstrable value to the person giving it?

This. How do you value resources ?
What is the case with Danegeld ? Or how do you define "Gold gifting" ?
In the end, even 800gold against 100gpt should not be okay. This is "inverse" gold gifting, because you can reduce it to 0 gold for 20gpt. (This simplifies it a bit).
Or if you allow to take out a loan, you do add a value to immaterial advantages (earlier finished research, emergency upgrade, etc.). So how do you value this immaterial advantages ?
And if you add a value to this, why do you not give a value to other immaterial advantages (earlier finished research for a war ally) ?

And to fully built the straw man:
So I showed that you should ban all gold trading.
Similar things can happen with Open Borders.
It's a crime if you don't open the border to one player.
Why not ban this too and play only with Always War to ensure a fair competition ?
"Always War" should put a stop to nearly all ways someone could use to coordinate.


So the straw man besides, I do agree that Gold gifting has the chance to be abused.
But I see no clear-cut rule outside a blanket ban on Gold trading.
If a clear rule is formulated, there will be loopholes.
If you formulate a vague rule, there will continue to be discussions.
So If you want to ban the critical stuff and ensure, that there is not discussion, you need a blanket ban on gold trading.


And I think the critical stuff should already fall under the “don't be an dick” rule.

For me, it becomes critical if a player uses a large part of the economy (more than 50%) to support a second player - or if a large part (more than 50%) of a player economic comes from outside sources (beside trade routes).

[naufragar]

are we saying that all gold-gpt deals must pay back at least the total sum gifted

Dreylin, sounds good to me.

Xist, I think you and other forum members have sharp, analytical minds and naturally think through all the loopholes and implications. I am not as analytical. I think we can just ban gold gifting.

If someone tries to be clever and get around the rule in bad faith, then we can use our lawyer-philosopher thinking modes. Let’s not let the impossibility of legislating every situation stand in the way of a good rule.

[Mjmd]

I'm fine with that. Any other gold deals (emphasis on deals not gifting) should be good faith. It usually isn't a problem.

[giraflorens]

On Tuesday and Wednesday I will be on a trip. I beg for a pause if I can't play on Tuesday or early on Wednesday. I will be able to play on Wednesday evening for sure!!

[xist10]

Xist, I think you and other forum members have sharp, analytical minds and naturally think through all the loopholes and implications. I am not as analytical. I think we can just ban gold gifting.

If someone tries to be clever and get around the rule in bad faith, then we can use our lawyer-philosopher thinking modes. Let’s not let the impossibility of legislating every situation stand in the way of a good rule.

And there it is.
I have no problems with loosely defined rules.
But if you get more specific, I think you no longer have the right to invoke such loose definitions.

And if I interpret the experiences of CF (it was before my time) correctly, the discussion only gets worse when you have clear definitions and you are arguing about the letter of the law versus the spirit of the law.

And I truly believe that Rule 1 is sufficient for the spirit of the law.
I think you lose something for good if you almost remove the last possibility of (non-military) cooperation.

[Mjmd]

I've extended timer for Gira.

[Magic Science]

Hello again Pitboss 81 players.

You thought that you had seen the last of me, BUT YOU WERE MISTAKEN!

I will play the turns for Gira until Sunday afternoon. He left me instructions and I am still about as unspoiled as before.

[giraflorens]

Sorry about the delay. Now I'm back and playing as usual.