Yes, I checked out the game earlier but felt very much out of it and can’t really comment. But it looks like it should be everyone against SD at this point - if you and Dreylin help him kill Magic then won’t he be able to defend against you 1vs2 and still win? Or do you think you can make cheap gains? But if Magic is actively fighting you and Dreylin that seems counterproductive. And also, it seems like you'll need a lot more units to have a say in the showdown.
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[PB78] Underdogs and undercats: The Mrrshan warlords visit the world of Civ IV
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(December 3rd, 2024, 10:24)thrawn Wrote: Yes, I checked out the game earlier but felt very much out of it and can’t really comment. But it looks like it should be everyone against SD at this point - if you and Dreylin help him kill Magic then won’t he be able to defend against you 1vs2 and still win? Or do you think you can make cheap gains? But if Magic is actively fighting you and Dreylin that seems counterproductive. And also, it seems like you'll need a lot more units to have a say in the showdown. SD has gone relatively unharmed because he hasn't really engaged -- as I stated earlier, he's been parked on the outskirts of Marathon for almost 10 turns. I think if there's anytime to sign up with Dreylin, it would be at a time when we've both suffered due to his lack of support. The one caveat is that Dreylin owes his current competitive status to SD's side-by-side rebuff of Gavagai's monster stack, so that may be a tough bond to overcome. But maybe, just maybe, Dreylin remembers our time in the Apolyton DemoGame well enough to join me in one last quest.  I'm half-kidding, but we've been pretty cordial all game and both of us are certainly due for a win. And if he does, I think we have the tools in place to come out on top.I've been putting it off, but I'll float it out to Drey next turn.
Congratulations on getting the first kill in the game. How did you break Gav's last stand on the island?
And how is everything else going? It looks like everyone took some cities from Magic but he isn't out of the game yet. Have his GNP and foodhammers been reduced enough to take him out of contention at least? And are we getting close to commandos? If you pre-build enough pikes/etc with 13xp in Reticuli and then storm SD and just raze/pillage while avoiding his cats and non-mounted hitters, you may be able to cripple him enough that you win from there.
You still needs Military Science for Commandos.
The 13 start XP aren't that much - 3 barrack, 2 stable, and 8 from West Point, generals and vassalage/theocracy. And before railways commando isn't that good. 6 tiles for mounted units ? This still allows a devasting first strike, but...
This map has a lot of random railroads on it. If memory serves, there are spots where a commando unit can have considerable reach.
Do we get a T200 New Year update?
 Looks like SD captured Marathon... Is it possible to recapture or raze before he gets it online and has Dreylin expressed willingness to work with you against SD or will he sit on the sideline trying to catch up and hoping SD goes after you first? For commandos we need 13/20 xp for gunpowder/mounted units, SD needs 17/26, and Dreylin needs 26/26 so we do have a substantial advantage. Although if Magic has been settling GGs in Marathon it can equalise the number of commandos we and SD can get out of the door. I think even 1 mover commandos on roads can be pretty deadly here with the amount of borders and forking possibilities. How many turns would it take to get to Military Science and also for Military tradition for West Point? 400 hammers is a lot but it's exactly the extra Reticuli needs for mounted and that can really be a game ender.
Hey thrawn (as well as wiiliams and Xist), thanks for keeping interest in the game. Yes I feel I should post a T200 update with pics, so please request the details that you’d like to see. So far I’m planning:
–City screenshots with very little commentary, but extended build queues. –Graphs –Demographics –Marathon Wonder analysis –Tech strategy –overview maps –New Mrrshan city name updates! It remains to be seen how far I’ll get on these goals, but I definitely want to provide you all as much info as possible to foster discussion on how I’m planning to handle the next 30 turns. And before I do that, I think it’s important to shed some light on where we stand at this point. The Fall of Marathon (T198) I can say I’m really happy with this development, though it was bound to happen eventually. By T197, a Size 2 Marathon was defended by 18 mostly-healed Iranian units, holding Superdeath at bay with roughly 25 units after suffering outsized losses while trying to take the capital. He had also exhausted all 20 Catapults he brought in his initial stack and Marathon still had 30% cultural defense remaining from its culture/Castle. But circa T194, Dreylin moved in with a stack of 28, siege weapons in tow. And by T197, the city defenses had been reduced to 0%. On T198, I expected a mutual assault on Marathon but instead Dreylin went for broke and apparently fell just short of pinching this prize jewel of a city from SD’s languishing troops. So, the latter was able to waltz right in unscathed after about 25 turns of stagnation, immediately changing the balance of the game He’s got about 7 Muskets and his full stack there now, so there’s no way I’m going to take a crack at the city. I’ve actually purposely stayed away from this theater with the hopes that the Marathon situation drives a wedge between our last two viable rivals. The only way this could be worse is if Dreylin purposely served up Marathon to repay SD for getting him out of a jam with Gavagai awhile back. I doubt that's the case, but I’ve been playing under the assumption that we could close out the game on the wrong side of a 2 v. 1. I’m counting on SD keeping his word for now. Peace Until T230? With Magic adeptly defending like a mongoose inside a powder keg (all 3 of us have been dealt devastating losses during this war), SD reached out to me with Fish peace until T230 right before Dreylin’s advance. I believe that he shared my concern of being left vulnerable if one of us were able to clear their side of the channel first. There was a bit of heft to his offer as he had just completed Chemistry with Steel queued up next. This is the only reason I was forced to accept the offer, as I’m halfway to Astronomy to start building Observatories as a means of teching competitively. And I’ve been considering Steel for awhile, considering the game-changing attributes of Cannons (at the very least). I'll definitely be prepared to have it by T230. For what it’s worth I am the military leader in terms of troops and have a plan to keep that advantage, though likely not in the manner you’re expecting. More on that in a moment... New Civics Earlier in the 190’s, I began coveting Mercantilism since Drey and Magic both had it, closing off our trade benefits as a result. I didn’t want to be in the position to lose my last foreign trade routes (however meager) should SD get there before me. And with only about 15% of our trade routes foreign, I wanted a specialist boost for a higher trade off. There are great cases to be made for bumps in EP, culture and science to warrant me making the switch. However, it would take two turns of anarchy to procure this civic, which to me was overpriced. I could bring along a second civic for the same penalty, so with no GA expected in the near future, I chose to add Organized Religion. On T196, I took the hit and just got our cities back online for T198. And for the record – yes, I've been looking forward to fielding Commandos as much as you have. But a military advantage coupled with 30-odd turns of peace convinced me that this was the time to make some massive gains in infrastructure to prepare for the endgame. OR would help us get Banks and Observatories quickly to supplement both sides of the slider. I’ll also be able to complete the Parthenon in Mantar and the National Epic in Quayal after years of them supplying units to the Iranian frontlines. And also assist with… The Oncoming Culture War The only bad thing about the killer gains I made from Gavagai is that CRE Superdeath has grabbed territory close enough to deny me a severe amount of food. So cities like Lahore, Golden Sphere, Calcutta and even the last Indian holdout Goodneighbor are a shadow of their former selves against long-standing (or new CRE) borders. My choices for the next 30 turns are geared more toward culture and commerce/tech than military. And since I’ve turned away from Theo for the moment, I’m limiting the types of troops I’ll build to those that don’t lose a promo. We can still build: –Longbows/XBows (8/8 XP) - still viable at Garrison III –Catapults (5/8 XP) - still get Barrage III on mostly expendable units, so additional promos not really a concern. And Ive got special plans for Reticuli for the rest, though I’m not sure I’ll be successful. On T198, instead of Astro, I was able toi 1-turn Music so SD cannot see (but may still C&D) that I’m making a play for Sistine. To force it along, I’ll be 1-whipping units here just short of a full build so that the overflow enhances the next turns hammers toward the Wonder. With religion playing a huge role in this game, I really should have noticed this opportunity back when I bulbed Macchu Pichu –clearly a miss on my part. Drey does not have Aesthetics but SD obviously has because MT. And since he added the Spiral Minaret via his Marathon spoils, it would be nice if I could gain a religious benefit. Incidentally, Drey just built Sankore U. so I’ll be left out of the religious fun should I fail here. Serfdom Golden Age I’m not sure how soon we’ll get here, but I’d like to have my next GA before T230. And I’d like to time it after getting Replaceable Parts due to the boost of Watermills and Windmills from that tech. In doing so, Serfdom would fully replenish our hill production while giving us extra GA commerce for just about every active tile. Our cities can also recover unhindered after all the whipping I’m about to do. In preparation for this possibility, I’ve been sending workers across the empire to put 4 of 5 turns into Windmills on 40+ mined hills so that they can be converted quickly when needed. In fact, I may start the process well before the GA since my rapid infra plan depends more on food than production. I’m really looking forward to seeing how this turns out. Workers are now doubling back to do the same thing for Watermills, but I may divert them for a test run in a city or two before taking it nationwide. War with Iran Nears Its End I must have some crazy things in the works if the current war ends up on page 6! But my part of it should hopefully be over in 3 turns with the conquest of New Tehran. We have a 54-29 advantage here in the home stretch, and 9 of Magic’s units are Catapults. My desired troop numbers were calculated to evenly distribute the barrage from these Cats, which is why you may have noticed the 15-odd whips in PBSpy just before I revolted to new civics. I’ll be able to counter with 5 Cats of our own. It should have been 7 but Granicus conveniently added a 4th ring during my advance. My stack is optimized against Melee so I think we’ll be alright.  T200 looms once SD plays. I’ll do my best to keep the promises I made above. Thanks so much to you all for sticking around!
Yesterday, 19:11
(This post was last modified: Yesterday, 19:17 by Donovan Zoi.)
So while the words are flowing, I see that you all recently posed some questions/ideas to me. Let's go through those real quick.
(December 24th, 2024, 10:30)williams482 Wrote: Sounds like things continue to happen. How goes the Mrrshan side of it all? (December 25th, 2024, 11:28)thrawn Wrote: Congratulations on getting the first kill in the game. How did you break Gav's last stand on the island? Thanks! It was a slow but gratifying conquest at the end, but the final battle of Goodneighbor was initially delayed after Magic's first ambush that took 25 units from me. At that time, Goodneighbor had 10 units defending and it pretty much stayed that way until near the very end. Rather than build up an insurmountable defense in this island city, it appears that Gav used all his resources toward gaining naval parity. He had teched Compass and Optics fairly quick and at one point had more Caravels than me! Gav also had a 16-3 pop advantage in this body of water and things would get out of hand quickly if I allowed this naval buildup to persist. This forced me to favor a 4th Caravel over a 3rd Galley, which meant a long drawn out transfer to the island. I decided my 4 Combat II Cavs would be only used to protect a coastal tile between Bombay and the island for safe passage. Finally on T187, I was able to start bringing units 4 at a time (while also fielding troops for Magic). I led with 3 Pikes and a Mace, figuring the Pikes would keep Gav's five Knights at bay. And as it turns out, I was able to get 16 units on the island with no counter! As I started to advance, Gav finally started hitting my stack with newly-built Muskets, resulting in the loss of 2 CR3 Maces. This last point is extremely important since Gav has had Gunpowder since T168 and had only now started building them. On T193, I had 7 B3 Cats in my stack of 17 against 11 Indian units. I only used 5 of them, opting to preserve 2 for the next turn. I had simmed this several times and the rehearsal paid off -- the actual execution yielded better results than any of the tests. My remaining units cleared out all castle-defensive units, leaving four 6.4/10 Knights. The damage was all Cat-related, and my Pikes were used to clear out injured defenders while staying healthy enough to withstand an attack out from Horses. Despite whipping one last Musket (Gav only produced 3 total here) and getting a small health boost to the Knights, Goodneighbor finally fell on T194 leading the way with my last 2 Cats. And it was all done while leaving Castle defenses at 100%. The plunder was average (224g) but the infra perks were a bit mindblowing. I would just have to wait 11 turns to use any of them.  In the end, it seems that Gav really let up on me so he wouldn't have to play out this one city challenge to T250 and beyond. Or just wanted to make this lake a living hell for me navally (he ended up half way to Astronomy when the battle was called). I don't think I've ever captured a Size 16 city in SP, and it's completely unheard of in RB! With all the holiday and SD-related delays recently, this war seems like a distant memory even though was only 5 turns ago.  (December 25th, 2024, 11:56)xist10 Wrote: You still needs Military Science for Commandos. (December 25th, 2024, 11:28)thrawn Wrote: And how is everything else going? It looks like everyone took some cities from Magic but he isn't out of the game yet. Have his GNP and foodhammers been reduced enough to take him out of contention at least? And are we getting close to commandos? If you pre-build enough pikes/etc with 13xp in Reticuli and then storm SD and just raze/pillage while avoiding his cats and non-mounted hitters, you may be able to cripple him enough that you win from there. Yes, I've been working toward Commando and have been really excited for it. We now have 3 GGs in Reticuli to help it along, but are taking a short break from favoring military. My tactics seem to resemble thrawn's, as at this point in the game I feel it's better to utilize Commando for scorched earth razes rather that risking a retake of a city, especially if we can get close to the core. And I still like the idea of saving a 4th Mounted promo for Blitz since that will be vital to hasten the demise of an already injured stack. However, I'm still considering letting the fight come to me after T230 since Barrage III really shines on the open field. Cats are a great 2-whip unit at minimal production costs with Forge, which falls in line with my Windmill gambit. I'll just have to build enough of them to counter the same stack size I'm throwing against Magic now. Times 3. Once I have all 3 commerce buildings in a Serfdom-fueled economy, I am hoping to easily produce enough gold to upgrade the lion's share to Cannons when I get the tech, enabling me to match the head start that SD is going to have on me. Because you see, SD was still going for Steel despite our peace agreement. Is there a chance he will set his sights on Dreylin before our 30-turn deal expires? Would he consider backstabbing me? I guess we'll see soon enough. First order of business is to free my 50-odd stack from Magic's culture, so I can bready myself for any scenario.
Thanks for the update! Unfortunately it doesn't look very good to me and I have no idea what Dreylin can possibly be thinking charging at Marathon like that other than being resigned to the game and favouring SD over you but it must be something else.
For the future I'd go with a completely different plan, putting 0 hammers into infra and focusing only on how many foodhammers you can channel into units vs how many the others can. SD's economy must be significantly better than yours and maybe Dreylin's also is. So going for development will worsen your position over time with the exception of immediate military techs. Nav1 galleons would be great so astro could be good but how many turns do you need for astro+paper? And how many turns for mil science and tradition? If you have promised peace to SD until 230 and want to keep it, the only path to victory I see is to blitz Dreylin immediately and then to storm SD with commandos from multiple sides on T230 and try to raze as much as you can. West point in Reticuli and then mounted commandos - but it depends on how far the techs are. If you can secure peace with Magic and be sure that he won't backstab you, I'd do that too and not waste any troops on him but go after Dreylin with everything instead. Consider even helping Magic retake or resettle some of his former lands to culturally squeeze Marathon so SD doesn't get foodhammers from it at least - and same for any other power tiles he can deny SD in other cities. But no point trying to culturally fight, that's too slow and costly. Happy to discuss but I really don't see how anything other than going all in on military can improve your position relative to the others. |
