[EitB LVIII Spoilers] coldrain prolongs the Age of Fire

[coldrain]

Third time's the charm! (both for my participation in EitB PBEMs and Dark Souls series) Starting the thread early to celebrate beginning of my vacation!

Will probably continue with Dark Souls naming theme, Dark Souls III this time of course! My favourite multiplayer PvP and CooP game so far.

[coldrain]

Alright, all players have made their therads. Now waiting to see the start, any dedlurkers around here this time?

[RefSteel]

Here's your starting screenshot, taken in Bare Map Mode.  The barbarian sign is just a randomized identifier for which start is which, but the tile it's on is the one where your units will start.  Note the fog may or may not be reliable, depending on whether I make any further changes for balance or aesthetics nearby.




And your first set of choices:

Hannah the Irin (Financial, Raiders, Insane) of the Lanun, with Cartography OR Fishing OR Hunting
...or...
Einon Logos (Philosophical, Charismatic) of the Elohim, with Mysticism
...or...
Garrim Gyr (Financial, Arcane) of the Luchuirp, with Mining OR Masonry
...or ask to roll three different leaders and civs (up to twice).

One note on Elohim:  One of their civ abilities is that they begin the game with all Unique Features on the map revealed.  If any off-the-books special sites like Syraethe's Stand are included in this game, they won't be revealed automatically, but I will manually reveal those that I included to "replace" Unique Features that were considered inappropriate to MP games (e.g. Syraethe's Stand was created to replace the Broken Sephulcre in LVI).  There may also be other special sites, even signed like the Unique Features are, that will not be revealed to the Elohim at game start however.  (Murex Grotto was an example of such a site in LVII.)

[coldrain]

Thanks Ref!

Interesting start, dare I say a bit unusual too? No agri resources and the only 5 food tile is a single grassland sheep. It's going to be a slow growth in the beginning for any civ without calendar (agrarianism), animal husbandry or hunting as a free tech pick. But on the other hand, riverside grassland wine is maybe the best hybrid commerce/food improvement of the game and I get two of them! Researching the missing food techs should therefore be of no issue in the long run.

Hmm, founding on the marble tile looks very tempting. Capital would loose a plains cow, but gains another hill deer and perhaps more importantly another two river grasslands for agri farms or cottages. I think the weakest link for this start is availability of good early food tiles. Camp resources are only considered early if I pick a civ with free hunting tech. There are plenty of hills for production, thats great.

Another quick thought: If the land in this map is similar to previous game (some river lands with most of the grassland dotted there and low food density dry plains elsewhere), Fellowship of Leaves would be very useful even for non-elven civs for the food bonus on forests.

Finally some initial thoughts on possible civs and synergies: No coast visible at all, so Lanun is not a viable alternative. Fog gazing shows maybe glacier in the south, so coast might be south-east? Still not enthusiastic about the pirates. Garrim Gyr of Luchuirp is one of the best economy civs in the early game thanks to super efficient worker golems and the powerful world spell. Mining or masonry however are not the best free tech choices here. Dwarven hill movement bonus would be useful too for exporation I guess. Elohim, and spesifically Einon Logos has some very interesting and possibly powerful mid to late game options. Mysticism as strating tech is okay. I still have the gut feeling that a civ with access to free animal husbandry or calendar has the fastest growth rate for this start. Hunting would be good too, but I've started every game so far with that  

Time to do some single player tests and simulate possible openings.

EDIT: Wait, I didn't notice that the deer closer to starting tile is flat grassland, not a hill. So there are two 5 food tiles eventually, with animal husbandry and hunting. This makes founding on marble and taking hunting as free tech maybe the best option?

[shallow_thought]

Good to see this game on the road. I'll hang around and lurk here, as the last game was so rudely interrupted, if that's alright.

Interesting start map indeed. Not sure about the starting civ / leader options myself. Luichurp just don't click for me in MP because half of their kit doesn't play in a move-dominated meta - but I've known people who think the remaining parts still make them playable down the arcane line. Lanun don't fit the start. That leaves Einon, which looks decent except for the starting techs (I don't think I knew he'd swapped the awful Def for the rather good Cha in the mod). What are the odds of getting something better on re-roll? And, perhaps more to the point, the odds of getting stuck with something unplayably unfun?

[coldrain]

Welcome aboard! Happy to have you here again. 

I made some extensive single player testing for the opening, and that double riverside wine really gives more flexibility to any approach. A civ with free calendar or hunting have the fastest growth rate (and therefore fastest to first settler) but mysticism civ is not too far behind. Mining start with Luchuirp super worker worked decently too. Here are some of the opening strategies I tried. I played until first settler is finished.
Einon Logos (PHI/CHA) with mysticism, tech path calendar -> hunting -> mining:

Einon Logos (PHI/CHA) with mysticism, tech path hunting -> mining -> AH:

Details listed as signs in screenshots. In both openings I invested into the Elohim UB reliquary, to work a priest specialist at size 6. Then use prophet to bulb Way of the Forests. Both tried tech paths grant settler on T30, but I like hunting -> mining a bit better, since I’m in position to use God-king boosted mines there earlier. Calendar could be better if second city site really needs agri farms to grow (no way of knowing this yet). Hunting will give enough food for capital, so calendar is not strictly needed in the early game.

Building the reliquary seems like a good strategy for the free +1 prophet points per turn and priest slot. The prophet spawns at a reasonable pace, even when avoiding pacifism, as I don’t like the unit production malus in the early game. I can use the prophet to bulb Fellowship (need hunting) or Kilmorph (need mining) or settle as great specialist (benefits from God-king bonuses). Wines + CHA allows size 7 capital, so working one specialist doesn’t slow the building of settler too much. The biggest hurdle with mysticism tech start is the slow growth on size 1 and 2 with working the wines.

Then here’s Garrim Gyr (FIN/ARC) with mining, tech path calendar ->  mysticism -> hunting (placeholder):

This start is faster to first settler if I skip building elder council when mysticism finishes. With elder council and working a scientist, settler finishes on T31. Here capital works a lot of God-king boosted mines, so next settler is something like 5-6 turns, quite a bit faster than Elohim. Also more warriors are done as no reliquary built. Hunting a sthird tech was a place holder, maybe going for Kilmorph religion is better. Also here enchantment mana from palace allows growing a bit larger before first settler, which I like.

And finally worldbuilder modified start as Elohim, to simulate a civ with hunting as free tech (didn’t bother with switching civs). Tech path mining -> mysticism->AH:

Faster growth with early deer camps meant that building second worker before settler made sense. First settler out T29, or about 4 turns earlier if skipping second worker. Note that I left city at size 6, as not all hunting civs have extra happiness available. Didn’t test calendar civ start, but I would imagine it is similar in pace to hunting start with all of the available grassland to farm.

Conclusion
Mysticism start with Elohim or mining start with Luchuirp are not too slow compared to a hypothetical hunting start. I was worried that hunting is the only right choice here. Mining start without Luchuirp super worker would be quite a bit slower, so maybe avoid mining civs if I take a new selection. So the question is if I want to play as Elohim or Luchuirp, or fish for something else? Since there are six players and 19 civs to roll from, I think the best civs will be picked on first round. Interesting other potential civs that I would maybe like for this start:

• ·         Illians (hunting)
  
• ·         Amurites (mysticism)
  
• ·         Sidar (mysticism)
  
• ·         Malakim (mysticism)
  
• ·         Balseraphs (calendar or AH)
  

I guess either of the elves would be good too, but I’m not too keen on playing as pointy ears again for now. On the other hand, Luchuirp for explosive early game economy into arcane path investment or Elohim with early reliquary prophet would be interesting too. And Elohim units with free spirit guide and march promotions are actually surprisingly effective to try and hunt down barbarians for extra promotions. One final whacky idea: Einon (CHA/PHI) is almost made for building two or three levels of Altar of Luonnotar for 4-6 xp on disciple units… Combine this with CHA, apprenticeship +2xp and conquest or military strategy commander +2 xp -> build Ashen Veil disciples at level 4 and upgrade them directly to mages! Instant mages for non-arcane civ in the Altar city, but requires heavy investment to religion techs in addition to sorcery path. In my test game, I made it to the instant mage factory somewhere around T90-100 depending on great person generation luck.

[coldrain]

Alright, I will lock Garrim Gyr of Luchuirp with mining as my choice.

I still have dreams of reaching magic using units in a game, maybe this time I will succeed. Luchuirp super worker golems, great world spell and FIN should carry my early economy until I have time to research the arcane path. I was very tempted to reroll and hope for Balseraphs, Amurites or Illians... This choice should be fine too. I'll write up about the civ and the preliminary game plan soon.

[coldrain]

Made another single player test for opening tech path and capital build order. Result:


Screenshot is from T46, when I just completed 3rd settler. Tech path was mysticism -> calendar -> Way of Earthmother -> animal husbandry -> masonry. Reason for mysticism first is to revolt to GK earlier and build elder council while growing. At size 7 a sage specialist is hired, which results in great sage being born at the same time when 3rd settler is built and my world spell is unlocked (needs masonry). This means that immediately after founding my fourth city, I can pop the world spell and start accumulating great engineer points from the free golden hammer specialists. After I use my world spell, it becomes more difficult to obtain great sages, so with this plan I guarantee getting one before the engineers start rolling in. Great sage can be used for an academy at capital, or saved for (partial) sorcery bulb.

This simulated opening doesn’t account for the maintenance cost of additional cities and I might not get the holy city for Kilmorph, so maybe I have to research masonry before AH to line up the use of world spell as fast as possible after founding city #4. I quite like this plan, even if hiring the sage specialist means I can work one less God-king boosted mine in the early game. And exploration information or possible barbarian activity can alter this plan too… But for now this seems like the most interesting approach to boost my economy with guaranteed academy, or line up sorcery bulb later.

[coldrain]

Turn 1

And we are live! Played first turn:


Plan is to follow my latest sim with tech path of mysticism -> calendar -> Way of earth mother. If early exploration reveals an abundance of pasture resources, then maybe I will research animal husbandry instead of calendar. My mud golem (super worker) is not very visible in the picture, but it is building the winery 1N of capital. I will send scout to north or northeast and make a loop counter clockwise to see possible expansion spots. Warrior takes a quick look south, but will return soon to capital because of risk with Illians using their world spell early. I will explain my reasoning more in detail in a later post. Speaking of Illians, here’s the complete list of player civ choices:
- DaveV as Keelyn (Creative, Summoner, Ingenuity) of the Balseraphs
- BING_XI_LAO as Cassiel (Philosophical, Industrious, Adaptive) of the Grigori
- xist10 as Alexis (Philosophical, Aggressive) of the Calabim
- Aurorarcher as Cardith Lorda (Philosophical, Expansive, Adaptive) of the Kuriotates
- coldrain as Garrim Gyr (Financial, Arcane) of the Luchuirp
- Brian Shanahan as Auric Ulvin (Charismatic, Arcane, Agnostic) of the Illians

Very strong picks overall, with some scary potential early-mid game rush civs (Calabim, Illians, maybe Grigori). Opponent analysis to follow.
Excited to finally start this game! I have some aspiring ideas of how to leverage the (usually) strong Luchuirp economy for a mobile army composition in the mid game. (Hint: Barnaxus the Golem might perish in an “accident” the instant he is built).

[shallow_thought]

I'm loving the plan, although we'll see how well it survives contact with the enemy - which, as always includes the terrain and wildlife in Erebus.

I normally play MNAI as the mod-mod, which I think nerfs the Luichirp by preventing you moving golden hammers, and thus stacking them, so I've probably been underestimating their Worldspell. I'm very interested to see how this Arcane dwarf play works out. How are you going to bulk out your army to keep the squishy mages alive?