American Politics Discussion Thread

[Charr Babies]

Sarcasm yes. A little dump on Trump. 
It's about the trustworthiness of our politicians (and mainstream media). How can you blame anyone for not trusting them, given the constant misinformation, broken promises, lies and hidden agendas

And how cavalierly we abandon our allies. Many times, I've said we're always ready to throw our lapdogs under the bus when it's no longer (or less) profitable. As Kissinger famously said, 'It may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal.'

Even I wouldn't have expected Trump to go to such extremes in alienating Ukraine, but I must say, if my speculation is correct, it's a brilliant move. The biggest mistake Biden made—and any president can make—is pushing Russia and China closer together. Sacrificing Ukraine while still collecting the debts (plus a hefty interest (pun intended)) it owes to the U.S. might be a minor concession in the attempt to lure Russia away from China, which is key to our domination.

What about the EU, NATO? What does a peace talk with Russia has to do with them, it is a war between the US and Russia. But of course, we will let them know how it’s going to be when it’s done.

As for the EU and NATO, the Nord Stream pipeline got blown up, so they are now reliant on our energy supply and are paying 3-4 times as much. Yet, no one dares to say or do anything about the pipeline. They pay the price for our subjugation to the point of economic collapse, yet they lack backbone and will always bend under our tyranny.

As I have said before, we already own Ukraine. The longer the war drags on the more it costs but less Ukrainian land and resources to grab

[Mjmd]

This idea that Russia will somehow ever be our ally is always hilarious to me. The people who are like "ya sacrifice our alliance with NATO / EU you know a huge economic bloc" so we can be closer to RUSSIA....... I also love the same people that say "Biden was forcing Ukraine to stay at war" also are like "ya US and Russia will let everyone know what will happen next". Like Ukraine doesn't get a say and EU might not continue supporting without us. But mind if we ever need them in the future, they are now very pissed at us. For all the people wanting a multi polar world Trump is trying his best!

[Charr Babies]

This idea that Russia will somehow ever be our ally is always hilarious to me.

I think you are a little confused. Having a better relationship with Russia doesn't make allies.  It may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's ally is fatal. I don't think Russia will make that mistake.

The people who are like "ya sacrifice our alliance with NATO / EU you know a huge economic bloc" so we can be closer to RUSSIA....... 

That's what IS happening. 

... I also love the same people that say "Biden was forcing Ukraine to stay at war" also 

You love FACTS!?

are like "ya US and Russia will let everyone know what will happen next". 

That's what IS happening

Like Ukraine doesn't get a say 

Ukraine and EU never got a say with Biden. Nothing goes without an okay from the mafia boss. Yea yea yea, don't go off on a tangent how we let them breathe and breed on their own free will.

and EU might not continue supporting without us. But mind if we ever need them in the future,

Need their support for what?

they are now very pissed at us.

They always have, if only a little, but they're too spineless to stand up to our tyranny. They are pissed now; what are they going to do?

[greenline]

Building an alliance with Russia will be difficult now that there is 20 years of post Soviet bad blood culminating in the Ukraine war. Hard, but worth an attempt. Ukraine itself is a money pit and the debt burden is becoming a real problem. Since Trump is serious about going after NGOs he can probably gut NATO enough to make a peace deal happen.

The spin about Zelensky being an evil dictator responsible for the war is of course a lie. Zelensky did prove himself to be a courageous enough leader with skin in the game; he also proved that courage alone doesn't make you a good leader, as his actions have resulted in the destruction of his nation without any real gains.

[Mjmd]

So we are giving Russia everything they want and getting jack in return. Yes makes sense.

There is no proof Biden was forcing Ukraine to stay in the war. There are plenty of FACTS that Trump is negotiating without Ukraine.

Just because the US and Russia tell the world what will happen doesn't mean it will. Ukraine may decide that giving Russia everything they want is in fact NOT what is in their best interests. The EU may do the same.

Again, prove it.

Tariffs on China. Support for literally anything else we want to do internationally. Some people just look at hard power, but us working together with the EU is A TON of soft power available. How much do you think they will help us with going forward?

@Greenline - he has helped Ukraine survive. A feat most did not predict back at the beginning of the war. Part of why we think of Frederick the Great as "great" is that his nation survived invasions that should have overwhelmed it. Heck if Russian leadership hadn't suddenly changed he probably would have been overwhelmed. I'm not saying Zelensky is as great mind you, but surviving against the odds isn't nothing is more my point.

[darrelljs]

So we are giving Russia everything they want and getting jack in return.

I mean...we haven't seen a deal yet so we don't know what it will look like. That's not a bad assumption but let's wait and see.

Darrell

[Charr Babies]

[Charr Babies]

So we are giving Russia everything they want and getting jack in return. Yes makes sense.

Make sense to you or not matters not. Have you made sense why Trump won by a landslide yet? Who said we are giving Russia EVERYTHING? 

There is no proof Biden was forcing Ukraine to stay in the war.

Pretty good evidence he was, if only for the lack of trying for a peace talk. 

There are plenty of FACTS that Trump is negotiating without Ukraine.

What I said

Just because the US and Russia tell the world what will happen doesn't mean it will. Ukraine may decide that giving Russia everything they want is in fact NOT what is in their best interests. The EU may do the same.

There's that  EVERYTHING trap again.
No they don't have to agree. So go fend for themselves, if they can afford it, if they have the production and energy capacity, if...

Again, prove it.

Prove what?

Tariffs on China. Support for literally anything else we want to do internationally. Some people just look at hard power, but us working together with the EU is A TON of soft power available. How much do you think they will help us with going forward?

How is that soft power working against Russia and China!? NOT SO GOOD.


PS: I would argue being more friendly as in more neutral and cooperative with Russia and China is more profitable than the entire EU and Ukraine put together. But that's a discussion for another day.

[Mjmd]

What is Russia giving us? I mean there is a lot of rumor atm, but what can Russia give us that is more valuable than NATO alliance?

BOTH sides have to want peace. There were rumor's of a "as is" border peace talk plan for a year before the elections, but both sides aren't anywhere close on peace terms. IE Ukraine NEEDS good security guarantees. Russia for some odd reason doesn't want them to have those, making Ukraine even more think they need the guarantees. There is a reason current peace talks don't include Ukraine. Those are terms UKRAINE needs, that Russia doesn't want them to have. US is offering terms Ukraine doesn't agree with. So ya bad conjecture isn't evidence. The lack of something does not prove a conspiracy theory.

They might. And next time we ask them to help us with something they might say "no". Allies help each other, but we aren't going to be that soon. Should we be unilaterally setting peace terms? NO. Again, from a geopolitical stand point. Its stupid. We get nothing and piss off long standing allies. From a moral argument its also bad. The side involved in the war SHOULD BE part of the peace deal.

I mean China hasn't invaded Taiwan yet. When we asked Europe to limit high end micro chips and high end micro chip producing machines, did they say "no" or did they help us their allies? Europe is also part of the push to "friend shore" which is helping us and hurting China. Now its not ruinous, but its not nothing either. Russia its working so so, but its not like part a peace deal isn't to undo sanctions. Their economic minister is on record for saying they are hurting. Russia being a petro state vs China not being a petro state again is a very big difference as well.

Didn't the west in general try to be cooperative with Russia. I vaguely remember the Germans being real high on economic linkage being key to avoiding future wars....... Glad that worked. Also, your equation is even more off because we would also have to toss our Pacific allies to make China happy. So ya give up on the worlds most powerful defensive alliance ever for ???? I mean I realize Trump is doing part of it for free, but that doesn't make it smart. That doesn't make giving them everything they want is in our interests.

[CFCJesterFool]

give up on the worlds most powerful defensive alliance ever

Europe is militarily weak, and we are over 36 trillion dollars in debt. Why should America pay for European socialism? The free ride is coming to an end.