Race changes: Units

[Catwalk]

Yeah, will roughly double movement of all racial units. With some variations, though. I want to give Paladins 3 moves as they're heavy cavalry, for example. And they'll need other stat modifications as well, so you'll need to hold your horses a little while longer

What do you think about the proposed halflings?

[Vagabond]

I notice the halflings have +2 figures, which would put them up to 9 swordsmen and spearmen. But elsewhere I thought you said 9 figures causes graphical glitches.

Also, I'm curious what the cost part of the table means. Are beastmen and barbarians the same cost? Are orcs half the cost of high men for some reason I can't fathom?

[Catwalk]

I notice the halflings have +2 figures, which would put them up to 9 swordsmen and spearmen. But elsewhere I thought you said 9 figures causes graphical glitches.

I lowered spearmen and swordsmen to 6 figures, partly in order to be able to play around with racial bonuses like this.

Also, I'm curious what the cost part of the table means. Are beastmen and barbarians the same cost? Are orcs half the cost of high men for some reason I can't fathom?

A - means I haven't gotten around to assigning a value yet. And yes, orcs are currently at 60% of normal cost and high men are at 120%. Most of the numbers aren't set in stone by any means, and orcs do indeed look a little too good compared with high men. Maybe I'll go ahead and give them that -1 penalty to hit I was thinking about

I'm actually in doubt about how to price units. Specifically, I'm thinking about pricing them so they're internally balanced (if you get an advantage you'll always be paying more for it, unlike gnolls and lizardmen in 1.31) and make sure the other stats of races also match up. Which would mean that the sum of growth rates + racial units + building availability + any special abilities would also have to be internally balanced. I just don't like how gnoll and lizardmen are strictly superior to orc, high men and nomad swordsmen. I'd prefer for there to be a tradeoff in a direct unit comparison.

And welcome to the forum, glad to have you with us Feel free to introduce yourself in the welcome thread, I'd like to know where you heard about us as I'm busily advertising the community.

[Vagabond]

I'm actually in doubt about how to price units. Specifically, I'm thinking about pricing them so they're internally balanced (if you get an advantage you'll always be paying more for it, unlike gnolls and lizardmen in 1.31) and make sure the other stats of races also match up. Which would mean that the sum of growth rates + racial units + building availability + any special abilities would also have to be internally balanced. I just don't like how gnoll and lizardmen are strictly superior to orc, high men and nomad swordsmen. I'd prefer for there to be a tradeoff in a direct unit comparison.

That's a really tricky wicket. If you balance (gnoll/lizard) and (high men/nomad) early units, balance (gnoll/lizard) and (high men/nomad) mid-game units but (gnolls/lizards) still lack a late game unit then you've still achieved an unbalanced system. And there's dangers going both directions of balance. Current MoM system means some races are early rush races period, no real choice. But if you balance units throughout early/mid/late game then you're going to run into race homogenization, which would be a shame since races in MoM have alot more personality than, say, countries in Civ.

So I guess the important question is goals. Achieve balance throughout the game, or have a three race types (that I can think of off the cuff)
a) Early power, fast drop off
b) Consistent balance
c) Early weak, end game high power.
I think I'd favor the three-fold model, as that's sort of where MoM is currently, though of course there are some significant bumps.

[Catwalk]

I guess I'm fine with keeping some races as rush races and others as tech races, but I'd like to blur the distinction some. Main reason is that you can capture other races. If you were one race all game it'd make more sense with sharp distinctions as it'd really shape your playing style, but with the ability to conquer other races it just gets really boring to capture rush races past mid game.

Think about Starcraft, extremely balanced and diverse races who can all rush and tech. There are many parameters to tweak in MoM, I think the same can be done here. But it is a tricky wicket indeed, more feedback is welcome.

[Vagabond]

Well, I'm going to have trouble commenting on balance with 1/2 the races missing cost, so I'm going to focus on flavor...

Barbarians - They are very bland. I'd be tempted to grab the gnoll +1 movement and give it to barbarians.

Dark Elves - Are DE only supposed to have one magic shot? It's all the customization they get so it seems at least a couple shots would be good.

Halflings - I don't like that they lost Lucky. Now of course, in 1.31 Lucky made halflings huge. However, halflings now have 1/2 the health of other races, so it seems it would be less of an issue and more race-appropriate than armor piercing.

Trolls - Currently they have less health than dwarves. I must admit I'm a huge dwarf fan-boy, but it seems trolls should still have at the minimum the same amount. You could give dwarves a resistance bonus to compensate for someone tying their health.

In general I like what you've done here, it's giving races a unique flair while establishing consistency. Balance questions will have to wait for the moment, both because of cost as I mentioned and you're still working on buildings and unique racial units. Changes there will reflect back here as you try to get a good balance.

[Catwalk]

Well, I'm going to have trouble commenting on balance with 1/2 the races missing cost, so I'm going to focus on flavor...

Exactly, thanks for picking up on that. I also need to put down all the racial units before any balance criticism makes sense.

Barbarians - They are very bland. I'd be tempted to grab the gnoll +1 movement and give it to barbarians.

I think the thrown attack is enough, I've always loved barbarians because of it. What does everybody else think?

Dark Elves - Are DE only supposed to have one magic shot? It's all the customization they get so it seems at least a couple shots would be good.

I agree, I'll give them 2 shots.

Halflings - I don't like that they lost Lucky. Now of course, in 1.31 Lucky made halflings huge. However, halflings now have 1/2 the health of other races, so it seems it would be less of an issue and more race-appropriate than armor piercing.

They still have lucky, I'll put it. I decided on armour piercing for slingers only.

Trolls - Currently they have less health than dwarves. I must admit I'm a huge dwarf fan-boy, but it seems trolls should still have at the minimum the same amount. You could give dwarves a resistance bonus to compensate for someone tying their health.

Also a blunder, changing them to +4.

[I like Serena]

Yeah, will roughly double movement of all racial units. With some variations, though. I want to give Paladins 3 moves as they're heavy cavalry, for example. And they'll need other stat modifications as well, so you'll need to hold your horses a little while longer

What do you think about the proposed halflings?

As Luddite said, I also have difficulties to visualise what the tables mean.
The changes you propose to the halflings sound about right, although it will take me some time get used to Slingers with only 6 figures.
And I believe the Troll Shamans will have 2 figures?
That seems strange but might be very interesting.

Either way, I'm hoping to get to a playable mod soon so we can experience it first-hand.

[I like Serena]

I see you've given High Elves Illusion Immunity.
Since Dark Elves are their cousins, shouldn't they have Illusion Immunity as well?

How about Merging for Lizardmen?
That is, I kind of like the idea of diversifying the races a bit more than they already are.

[b0rsuk]

I see you've given High Elves Illusion Immunity.
Since Dark Elves are their cousins, shouldn't they have Illusion Immunity as well?

I hope someone wakes up and realizes how ridiculous the change is. Conquering Sorcery nodes not even with longbowmen, but with swordsmen or spearmen now. You're making a race essentially immune to one branch of magic. Blur, Mind Storm, Vertigo, possibly Confusion. It also helps against Night Stalkers, Nightblades, Air Elementals, Wall of Darkness. It removes a lot of options instead of adding them.