November 15th, 2010, 13:35
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This is something I'm interested in a lot of help with, as it's a lot of work rebalancing all summoned units to match the new normal and racial units. If anyone is interested, please step up.
How would you like to see summoned units change, and what do you perceive as their current flaws? I'm interested in removing the police ability for normal units, which would indirectly boost summoned units. I'm also interested in creating more variety in casting and upkeep costs, so some units become better suited for cannon fodder duty and others become better long-term investments.
November 23rd, 2010, 13:31
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In general, I would like summoned creatures to have relatively many figures. This way nodes (+ Darkness and Heavenly Light) have more of an impact, and most of the good booster spells are limited to normal units anyway. So in general they'll keep their figure count or even get more here and there.
Random brainstorming on Nature creatures.
Sprites
Quick (5 forester moves) melee unit with 8 figures and lose flying.
War Bears
Whole bunch of hit points, armour piercing, speed 3, 3 or 4 figures.
Basilisk
Much stronger stoning gaze, basilisks are supposed to be badass at stoning.
Cockatrices
Seem too weak to me, overall stat boosts or focus more on their stoning ability with faster speed? Maybe turn them into Stirges with 6 figures?
Giant Spiders
Too weak, overall boost.
Earth Elemental
These are ridiculously easy to kill in lairs. Give them Large Shield?
Gorgons
They're too similar to Cockatrices. If Cockatrices aren't turned into Stirges, what to do about them?
Stone Giant
Never liked them much, don't know what to do with them. Too similar to Colossus and Fire Giant, I feel these 3 should be a bit more varied.
Behemoth
Maybe higher shields or large shield, these are way too easy to take out with ranged troops.
Colossus
Change the name to something else and turn him into a spellcaster?
Great Wyrm
I like wyrms 
December 3rd, 2010, 17:19
(This post was last modified: December 5th, 2010, 10:12 by Catwalk.)
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I attempted to balance summoned monsters based on all new decisions we made, but I think will take several iterations of testing to get it right. Based on my experience with them in v1.31 and my guesstimate of new spells and units, I propose the table below for start. I also considered Catwalk’s suggestions. I am not sure if increasing figures will require new images/graphics. I added 2 new summoned units for balance reasons: raft for arcane to take care of lack of “swimming settlers problem”, so you can’t be stuck on an island. I recommend as starting spell. Also life summon for battle only: zealots.
I propose magic immunity = magic immunity for sky drake etc. That is, immune to all magic, even friendly magic; benefit from city healing power and node effects though. Please comment if something should change.
Code: NameOfUnit Summ Upk Fig Mov Mel Ran Arm Res HP Extras
Arcane
MagicSpirit 30m 1m 1 1n 5 0 4 8 10 MeldWithNode NonCorporeal
Raft 25m 3m 1 1w 0 0 0 2 1 PoisonImmunity StoningImmunity DeathImmunity Carry1
Chaos
ChaosSpawn 500m 12m 1 1f 1 0 8 12 20 CauseFearSpell Poison5 DoomGaze8 DeathGaze2 StoningGaze2
Chimera 350m 10m 4 2f 9 0 7 9 10 +1ToHit FireBreath6
DoomBat 300m 8m 1 4f 11 0 7 9 25 +1ToHit Immolation
Efreet 550m 15m 1 3f 10 10 9 11 15 SpellsX6 +2ToHit Caster20 FireImmunity
FireElemental 20m battle 1 1 17 0 6 7 12 PoisonImmunity FireImmunity StoningImmunity
FireGiant 150m 3m 1 3 12 12 6 8 15 RocksX2 +1ToHit Mountaineer WallCrusher FireImmunity
Gargoyles 200m 5m 6 2f 5 0 10 9 5 +1ToHit PoisonImmunity StoningImmunity
GreatDrake 900m 30m 1 2f 30 0 12 14 30 +3ToHit FireBreath25
HellHounds 40m 1m 4 2 4 0 2 6 5 +1ToHit FireBreath4
Hydra 650m 14m 1 2 7 0 5 12 90 +1ToHit Regenaration FireBreath5 Heads9
NameOfUnit Summ Upk Fig Mov Mel Ran Arm Res HP Extras
Death
DeathKnights 600m 10m 4 3f 10 0 8 11 8 +3ToHit PoisonImmunity WeaponImmunity IllusionsImmunity ColdImmunity DeathImmunity ArmorPiercing FirstStrike LifeSteal Flight
Demon 0m battle 1 2f 16 0 7 10 15 +1ToHit PoisonImmunity WeaponImmunity MissilesImmunity IllusionsImmunity ColdImmunity DeathImmunity Flight
DemonLord 1000m 20m 1 3f 20 14 12 15 20 SpellsX8 +3ToHit SummonDemons3 PoisonImmunity WeaponsImmunity IllusionsImmunity ColdImmunity DeathImmunity Flight LifeSteal CauseFearspell
Ghouls 80m 2m 6 2 4 0 3 7 3 +1ToHit CreateUndead PoisonImmunity IllusionsImmunity ColdImmunity DeathImmunity Poison2
NightStalker 250m 3m 1 2 10 0 3 9 10 +1ToHit Invisibility PoisonImmunity IllusionsImmunity ColdImmunity DeathImmunity DeathGaze-2
ShadowDemons 325m 7m 4 1f 6 5 4 8 5 SpellsX8 +2ToHit PlaneShift Regeneration PoisonImmunity WeaponImmunity IllusionsImmunity ColdImmunity DeathImmunity Flight
Skeletons 25m 1m 8 1 4 0 5 5 1 +1ToHit PoisonImmunity MissilesImmunity IllusionsImmunity ColdImmunity DeathImmunity
Werewolves 100m 5m 6 3 7 0 1 7 6 +1ToHit Regeneration PoisonImmunity WeaponImmunity IllusionsImmunity ColdImmunity DeathImmunity
Wraiths 500m 8m 4 2f 7 0 6 8 8 +2ToHit NonCorporeal PoisonImmunity WeaponImmunity IllusionsImmunity ColdImmunity DeathImmunity LifeSteal Flight
Zombies 15m battle 6 1 6 0 3 3 4 +1ToHit PoisonImmunity IllusionsImmunity ColdImmunity DeathImmunity ImmunTSorcerySpells
Life
Angel 550m 15m 1 3f 17 0 10 11 15 +2ToHit IllusionsImmunity HolyBonus DispelEvil
ArchAngel 950m 20m 1 4f 20 13 12 15 20 +3ToHit Caster40 IllusionsImmunity HolyBonus
GuardianSpirit 80m 1m 1 1n 12 0 5 11 10 MeldWithNode NonCorporeal ResistanceToAll
Unicorns 250m 5m 4 2 7 0 3 10 7 +2ToHit Teleporting PoisonImmunity +2ResistanceToAll
Zealots 45m battle 6 2 6 6 1 7 1 SpellsX6 ColdImmunity DeathImmunity StoningImmunity Invisibility HealingSpell
Nature
Basilisk 325m 7m 1 2 15 0 7 8 30 +1ToHit StoningGaze-3
Behemoth 700m 15m 1 3 25 0 12 11 45 +2ToHit ArmorPiercing
Cockatrices 275m 8m 6 3f 6 0 4 7 4 +1ToHit StoningTouch-3
Titan(Colossus) 800m 17m 1 2 20 25 11 16 30 SpellsX2 +3ToHit WallCrusher PoisonImmunity StoningImmunity FirstStrike
EarthElemental 60m battle 1 1 25 0 7 10 45 +1ToHit WallCrusher PoisonImmunity StoningImmunity LargeShield
GiantSpiders 200m 4m 4 2 6 0 4 7 10 +1ToHit Poison5 Shoots1Web
Gorgons 600m 15m 4 3f 9 0 7 10 10 +2ToHit DeathGaze-3
GreatWyrm 1000m 20m 1 3 25 0 12 13 45 +3ToHit Merging(10distance) Poison15
Sprites 100m 3m 6 2f 4 4 2 8 1 SpellsX4 +1ToHit Forester
StoneGiant 450m 9m 1 2 15 15 8 9 20 RocksX2 +2ToHit Mountaineer WallCrusher PoisonImmunity StoningImmunity LongRange MissilesImmunity WeaponImmunity
WarBears 70m 2m 3 3 7 0 3 6 12 Forester FirstStrike
Sorcery
AirElemental 50m battle 1 5f 15 0 10 10 13 +1ToHit Invisibility PoisonImmunity StoningImmunity WeaponImmunity
Djinn 650m 17m 1 3f 17 9 9 12 20 +3ToHit Teleporting WindWalking Caster20
FloatingIsland 50m 5m 1 4w 0 0 0 10 30 PoisonImmunity StoningImmunity DeathImmunity Carry8
Nagas 100m 2m 4 2w 5 0 4 8 6 +1ToHit FirstStrike Poison4
PhantomBeast 35m battle 1 3w 20 0 0 10 20 +1ToHit NonCorporeal PoisonImmunity StoningImmunity DeathImmunity Illusion
PhantomWarriors 10m battle 6 1w 3 0 0 6 1 NonCorporeal PoisonImmunity StoningImmunity DeathImmunity Illusion
SkyDrake 1000m 30m 1 3f 20 0 11 20 25 +3ToHit IllusionsImmunity MagicImmunity Lightning20
StormGiant 500m 10m 1 2 14 10 8 10 20 SpellsX4 +2ToHit WallCrusher ArmorPiercing
December 3rd, 2010, 18:47
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Nice! It's going to take me a while to look at all this, so a more informative reply for later. I did a quick scan, and I noticed a few powers didn't seem to define penalties/bonuses. For example Life Steal for Death Knights and Wraiths, and Holy Bonus for Angels and Archangels.
For raft there had been talk about changing Summon Hero to summon heroes based on your fame, including champions when your fame gets high enough. That means we're dropping Summon Champion so Summon Raft could take its place. However, is that change to Summon Hero feasible for Christmas? I guess that question is more directed towards kyrub.
Also, in long term Chaos planning I had bumped Chimera up to a rare spell. However, that won't happen on the Xmas patch so I was wondering if Chimeras wer designed as an uncommon or a rare.
December 4th, 2010, 01:05
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Changing number of figures won't lead to problems, you just can't go above 8.
December 4th, 2010, 07:58
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I like the Raft concept, although I'm not sure what graphics we'd use for it. How about just making Floating Island an Arcane spell? Frees up a Sorcery slot for more interesting stuff. I don't think it should be a starting spell, though. I wonder if we need to follow the current rarity distribution for arcane spells.
December 4th, 2010, 13:24
(This post was last modified: December 5th, 2010, 00:15 by Catwalk.)
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Well, I agree with changing floating island to arcane spell and that eliminates need for raft. Floating island would only need minor change and it shall stay researchable with the condition that you guys accept my originally proposed research rules posted elsewhere, without the compromise I proposed. We don’t want an 11 book wizard wait for research slot opening up for floating island.
Vagabond,
Life steal, holy bonus is still there unchanged, scroll to the right. Is this too strong?
Chimeras were designed as is now. However, I also proposed earlier that all spells probability for research will remain the same depending on wizard’s number of books, so rare, uncommon, etc. would lose relevance other than research cost and possibly initial selection, but I prefer without latter.
December 5th, 2010, 00:20
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Joined: Aug 2004
The stuck-on-island issue won't be present in Insecticide to the best of my knowledge, so I don't think there's any need to let the AI get it right away.
Would this change make Water Walking useless, though?
December 5th, 2010, 10:16
(This post was last modified: December 5th, 2010, 11:56 by WhiteMage.)
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The stuck on island problem is not only an AI problem. For example it happened to me in v1.31 that my starting city was on the middle of a tiny island and there was no space for a second city. Without any means of leaving the island within the foreseeable future such games are nothing but a restart. Even if Kyrub’s new random map generator would deny such maps I strongly recommend having floating island as an arcane spell so edited maps can be made that would allow you to leave island. Water walking would not become fully obsolete, we just have to balance it that it is cheap and fast enough to make sense for use. Also, in the current version units on top of floating island can’t move during battle, but water walking units can.
December 6th, 2010, 12:37
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Joined: Oct 2010
So, I've been looking at the summoned units, and they're moving much slower than I expected. I would recommend moving most 1.31 movement 2 monsters up to speed 3-4, so they can match up with normal racial units. And I'd recommend using movement 1 very sparingly. It seems great for zombies or earth elementals, but terrible for skeletons or chaos spawn. I can't speak for anyone else, but in 1.31 I almost never use speed 1 units unless I have pathfinding or endurance. Since pathfinding in catnip won't give 1/2 movement/square I see 2 being the minimum unit movement in most cases.
Chaos
Chaos Spawn 2
Chimera 3f
Fire Elemental 2
Gargoyles 3f
Great Drake 3f
Hell Hounds 3
Death
Death Knights 4f
Demon 3f
Skeletons 2
Wraiths 3f
Life
Unicorns 3 (yes, I know they teleport so it's irrelevant, but it seems like horses should have better movement than bipeds)
Nature
Colossus 3
Sprites 3f
Sorcery
Phantom Warriors 2
Sky Drake 4f
Storm Giant 3
I didn't up every unit. Giant Spiders I left as 2 I was able to buy big spiders moving at normal person speed better than giants. They'd need to be built more like a melee front-line pounder instead of a cav unit. They might already be like that, I have trouble digesting the mass of numbers needed to make this table which is why I just focused on movement.
Also, I asked about resist penalties previously. I see the ability Life Drain listed for Death Knights, but no +/- #. I believe in 1.31 it's -4. So, for example, what I see for death knights is:
[INDENT]DeathKnights ... (stats) ... +3ToHit PoisonImmunity WeaponImmunity IllusionsImmunity ColdImmunity DeathImmunity ArmorPiercing FirstStrike LifeSteal Flight[/INDENT]
No # of LifeSteal. Conversely, for Chaos Spawn I do get #s...
[INDENT]ChaosSpawn ... (stats) ... CauseFearSpell Poison5 DoomGaze8 DeathGaze2 StoningGaze2[/INDENT]
I'm not sure if the number is a penalty to saves/damage, but if they are they seem roughly in line with their 1.31 version and look good.
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