[SPOILERS] Kaiser and TheArchduke are nice and friendly neighbours

[thrawn]

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[TheArchduke]

Oh my.

Well, let us get into the mood.



Boondock Saints would be a good fit as well.

[TheArchduke]

Ljubljana-Woden to play first, so Thrawn-Archduke to pick first.

Alright. TBS will need a while to make the map so there is no rush - let's consider and discuss this properly before deciding. I'll write down my thoughts on what's good to get in general and what specific combos we can go for.

I would have preferred it the other way round actually - that we play first and pick 4th and 5th so we are guaranteed a good combo, but we'll make do.

I concur.

Give me a couple of minutes, whipping something up.

Also thank you for getting rid of the stupid argument that with loyalty mechanics, ancient/classical conquest is useless. 

[TheArchduke]

Well, I relaxed my reporting and analysis a bit with PBEM 19. That is no good here with a teammate. So let´s condense the civ choices down a bit, so I can get down to business.

   

Phew. Those 19 civilizations either have a strong naval edge, are ridiculous strong, have a teambonus, or a combination of both.

   

Next we do not have the luxury of building a combo so we need to take one of the strongest of the list and try to deny someone else their combination.

So now let´s order by my perceived strength on a water based map.

   

I would rather play Mapuche then Spain, or Australia then Netherlands.

With that out of the way, we need to look if we can analyze potential combos with the 4 strongest civilizations. Either a double military whammy or a decent military-economy combination.

There are too many possible good combinations. So we need to consider from a single player perspective. What is the best possible naval civilization.

So with that the Top 5 are

Japan
Carthage
Norway
Indonesia
England

If we want an aggressive game, Norway beats all, if we want aggressive with a boom Japan. If we want to stay flexible Indonesia. If we want to boom England. If we want aggressive with booming Carthage.

So if we consider that we both are more aggressive players, it really boils down to Carthage, Norway and with a slight longterm edge, Japan.

[TheArchduke]

Here are my thoughts, I put them in a spoiler so you don't read them by accident before you write yours.

We can't really plan for a combo since we have no idea what will be available, but I'm pretty sure we'll have a good second pick too like Spain or the Ottomans, or a builder civ like Germany or Korea. So we want to get the best generally useful civ, and we'll see how to complement it at the end.


Important points
- Navy dominance, obviously.
- Tech shuffle means we'll need to muscle the trees sometimes taking the wrong branches, sometimes the eurekas not being available, so it's good if at least one of us covers each area (science/culture) strongly.
- The most difficult part of conquests will be the landings - so it's good to have some advantage there
- We should specialise - one on navy, the other on land (he'll also have a navy because it's needed to get support/flanking bonuses during landings but doesn't have to be as big). Btw our units will not give flanking/support to each other, so it's best not to mix them and fight in separate blobs. Mixing will make moving hell anyway.
- Specialise also on districts - one can go for hubs/encampments and the other for harbours. Maybe similarly on tech/culture - one on campuses the other on theater squares. This is also good for great people points and with 8 people there will be a lot of competitions for GPs.
- Religion can be good since we share it, so it's one investment, double benefit. We should get one. Probably Zen meditation+Tithe+Crusade would be best.


Other players
- I don't know anything about Marco Polo and Roland, but Ljubljana is a very good builder. Paired with Woden, they'll create powerful civs and Woden is also winning the fight in PBEM 18 so he's not just a builder. I'd say they are our main opponents.
- However since they are mainly builders, they'll probably neglect an early navy. So if we have Norway we should be able to deter them very successfully by pillaging everything coastal. This alone is a strong point for Norway imo.


Possible first pick

Norway
- Nubia on water!
- Deterring the others especially Woden and Ljubljana is extremely valuable.
- With the booster card galleys cost 26 production!
- The raiding rewards and the possibility to do them with melee ships are amazing.
- Healing in neutral waters makes a humongous difference.
- Being able to go to the oceans early means safe withdrawals.
- The berserkers are great for landings because they get +10 on attack but since they are in the water with a ship covering them, they won't be attacked back.
- Has a small advantage in religion. The temple boosts both production and faith so it's not entirely useless to build, and the ok-ish faith income is good enough for crusade against others who don't have great faith. But most faith income will come from pillages probably.

Japan
- +5 across the board for both land and navy
- Cheap and powerful districts, they can get an incredible economy. They can be very strong in culture which is otherwise difficult to achieve.
- The samurai are great for landings - cheap, powerful, not losing strength when injured, and they fill the gap between swords and muskets nicely, which is probably when we'll be attacking.

But a problem with both the samurai and the berserkers is that you can't upgrade into them, so they'll start fresh and it will be hard to get the amphibious promotion or even the first level promotions. But they are both melee which is the best type for landings so maybe we train them with Victor so they come with a promotion.

Australia
- Superb for coast - extra housing and district adjacencies - just make sure Norway doesn't pillage them.
- This is the big one - you can liberate city states and other civ's captures cities for 100% production for 10 turns!!! You don't need to wait for a wardec. People will be conquering each other - you just need to find a good place to liberate, and can sacrifice ships if necessary - you'll get all that production back.
- The digger is pretty good.

Indonesia
- First pantheon - god of the sea.
- Good faith for crusade and buying a navy.
- Jongs are powerful and can transport land troops fast. You can even chain jongs to deliver a unit across the entire map in a single turn.
- The kampung is great - housing and production.


I think all of these are super-excellent but I'm more fond of the first two than of the others.

- Norway is great for the deterring effect. The map is big so it may be hard, but Norwegian galleys move at 4 and can heal in neutral so they CAN do it - I think we'll be able to reach anyone in 10-15 turns at most. It's not super quick but it's not super long either, and several ships together will be self-sufficient as they can heal.
- For a great pairing combo, I think there is a good chance Spain remains available and it will pair excellently with Japan - Japan can get the religion, take care of the landings with the +5 and the samurai, and propel culture so Spain gets the armadas faster. And Spain either gets +4 against other religions, or if they don't have a religion we can convert them easily to crusade. And Spain's job is to covers the waters.
- Australia is more classic with district development, and then hunting that +100% production bonus by finding cities to liberate. Great but not so interesting.
- Indonesia also focuses on economy and is powerful but like Australia, less interesting.

So Norway for more raw power and pillaging the others, or Japan for a strong economy and still a lot of power.

Now, let´s get over your thoughts.

I agree with your point on landings, but outright conquests can be difficult, due note my complete naval superiority which was nullified by Singaboy in his core defense. This is a philosophical question, do we want to go with pillage, plunder and raze or do we want to try to conquer someone? Making a strong sea/land combination is a good point. Japan shines here as their advantage reaches one tile onto land.

Specialization on districts and religion is important. Both good points for Japan as it can get holy sites for free. I will go into oppo research more into detail later. Suffice to say that only Chevalier has an idea how to use military and even then he is prone to mistakes.

Our edge is sure to be martial.

Norway, taking it alone will stymie our opponents, which could work in our favour.

Japan is impossibly strong as well, especially in defense if you take DotF. On water maps this is +10 CS for your coasts.

I think we need to consider the strategic, psychological moment here. If Thrawn (wall of pitatl archers) and TheArchduke (burn your house down) take Norway, the other players will be VERY reluctant to establish coastal cities, expand or overextend. Now if we could combo Japan with it, one could choke everyone else with Norway and one could build.

More thoughts

I really like the Ottomans too, though they don't fit so well with our picking 1st and 8th as they'll probably be taken by the end (or maybe not, since the two of us are the big warmongers)

- The corsair is amazing for pillaging, and it's available early and even dominates the seas for a while.
- Catapults don't have a penalty against ships making them good for defence too.
- The governor can be shared for the 20% production to military
- The serasker promotion is also great for attacking cities, including with embarked units
- Janissaries are great, cheap, come at the right time, and automatically have a promotion
- No pop loss on capture and extra loyalty goes a long way for breaking on a new landmass.

They'd be the land muscle and have corsairs for naval support, so they'd need to be paired with a sea power like Norway. Norway can take care of the early pillaging/deterrence and the Ottomans of the midgame when others have walls and defences - sneak in, pillage, sneak out. But we'd be weak on economy - no discounted districts or other benefits and will have to make our gains from conquests and pillaging from the start. That can work but it's more of a gamble compared to a robust economic option like Japan. But if anyone can pull it off it's us so it's an interesting option.

And on the positive side, if we control the seas and are able to pillage every harbour and coastal improvement and capture or raze every coastal city, what more do we need to win?

So what do you think of these pairings, Norway+Ottomans and Japan+Spain and which civs would you prefer to play? Here I'd lean to Ottomans and Japan which happen to be the land powers and more economy focused and I think you like military and naval so it should fit well, but we can do it in any way.

Norway can be paired with many others that take a while to develop - Germany, China, Korea, Russia - so they are a good first pick and you can play them and I take the builder.

Japan can go with anyone who's good in science and navy. Those will be taken early so the question is if there are enough civs for a second option. If we take Japan the others will have six picks - so let's say Australia, Norway, Indonesia, England/Vic, England/Ele, Phoenicia, Spain - this is already seven so at least one should be available in addition to the builders Germany/China/Korea who are also good at science but it's Spain really that we'd want.

So Norway is probably the safer for pairing but I love Japan too and I think it's more suitable for tech shuffle as it will be easier to go through the culture tree and Norway won't be as dangerous in the hands of others as in ours, while they'll be able to make use of Japans bonuses both economic and military. It depends on what and how you want to play and maybe you have even better ideas.

I did not read your thoughts before. But I think we arrive at the same conclusion. The obvious choices are Japan and Norway. We need to consider two more things. Norway enables us to probably eat CS before anyone else and we deny its use.

One of our opponents will have Japan and will take DotF so we will have only two teams as good raiding targets.

Can we construct a good killer combo? I like your thinking on Spain + Japan or Norway + Ottomans.

I am slightly leaning towards taking Norway. And ignore the damn stave church.

[TheArchduke]

There is a point to be made that with all those peaceniks they might ignore Norway. They won´t ignore Japan.

[TheArchduke]

Yeah, the mapuche were stronger without the Pingala play though.

[TheArchduke]

Yeah, I think Japan is the best choice overall.

Do you want to go with Japan or should I? I am happy to go at it again.

[TheArchduke]

Ok, let's confirm in the organisation thread then.

Let's see which other choice we get and then decide. I don't mind playing the weaker civ, and I think we can choose based on which civ will require more micro and building optimisations - I can take that one while you take the one which will get more military action. For example if we get Norway/Mapuche/Spain you can get that while I sort out Japan's districts, and if we get a pure builder like Germany/China/Korea I can take it. Does this sound good? I can plan the micro for your cities too if you want, but I imagine you'd rather not have to swap citizens every turn if you don't have to, so it's better if I get the more complicated  one.

Chevalier is picking second last so he may get Norway on the second pass, but we have to just wait and see. I've have a deeper look at possible combos now that we have Japan for sure.

Sounds good. I disagree on the not swaping citizens part. I need some to kick my rear end so I micro correctly.

Things to consider:
- The tech shuffle. Getting the boosts for the techs we need is extremely valuable because it will show us which path in the tree we need to follow potentially saving a lot of research.
- Japan can do encampments and great generals - but they only affect its own units. But the +5 from the general stacks with divine wind so it's powerful.
- So we ideally want to attack with classical units - we need shipbuilding anyway for land troops and the general can boost swords and horses. Swords are good for the promotions and horses lose their extra movement when embarked so I think melee type units is the way to go this game. I need to test it but I think battering rams work in water so you can have a sword, a ram and a ship on the same water tile for multiple city attacks.
- If Japan gets a crusade religion, it will help only it and not the partner. From this perspective Spain is nice because either a civ has religion and Spain gets +4, or Japan can easily convert to crusade.
- Somehow we need to get harbours and admirals. Not necessarily build them, Norway+Japan should be able to launch an early offence and capture cities. It's also possible with China+Oracle+great faith income from divine inspiration and sacred places to faith-purchase the useful GPs.
- It's best if the partner covers science, harbours and navy because Japan will have its hands full between encampments, land army, the initial holy site or two for the religion, and pushing culture through the cheap theater squares. So Eleanor of England might not be too bad just for harbours+free inquiry.
- Since it will take some time to be able to attack, we need to start with infrastructure. China's extra builder charge, plus potentially the pyramids if there is a desert tile will help both civs (I think you can build improvements in any friendly territory but need to test to make sure). China is also good at science and can do the Oracle faith purchasing.
- The Ottomans are interesting and we just have to be careful with the specialisation. Both civs are 50/50 on both land and sea (serasker works for any attack, corsairs+janissaries, catapults ok against navy and cities) but if we pursue both routes with each it will end up too diluted. Since Japan has the discounted encampments and hence easier generals, it should take the land, so the Ottomans can do harbours with their initial cities, take serasker to break cities easier with quadriremes (but will there be enemy cities within range if the map is large?) and get free inquiry for science. Pushing culture should be easy for Japan (powerful adjacencies and discounted theater squares) which will help get to coursers fast and with that the Ottomans should rule the seas for a while and be a nightmare with coastal pillages.
- Gandhi has a couple of advantages but not enough I think. War weariness as you pointed out, and both civs will be able to found a religion so India will easily get two follower beliefs. It has +2 charges on missionaries so it's easier for it to spread crusade. But it can't cover science/navy/admirals well so I think this rules him out.
- The Aztecs are a great late bloomer. The warrior won't be of any use (unless we have a CS on the landmass - then we can kill their units for builders; this is within Woden's rule because they need to build their units so there is a limit, unlike pillage repairs) but they can build districts in their small cities very fast by using builders trained in the big cities, and their armies really power up with a few luxuries. They are also great at building late districts in the captured cities. And because the bonuses apply on all units and districts they are very good all around to complement Japan where needed - i.e. harbours and science.
- Russia seems to similar in strength with religion and culture and it has mainly the economy to complement so in this case it's not so good as normal.
- Rome also doubles on culture rather than science/navy, so not the best here.
- Spain is good as I wrote earlier.
- Korea might work for a crazy science push under Japan's protection and add harbours as the second district for even more science with free inquiry, plus gold and trade routes. This can work out quite nice actually.
- Germany will take a while to power up but once it does IZs and campuses everywhere it will be a power to behold. U-boats may be mediocre in general but they are terrifying in the oceans while Japan is terrifying on the coast.
- Genghis. This is a bit daft but if we are the ones to scout first with ships and make sure Genghis has an available trader, all we need to do is send a trade route and bang - a +6 advantage against one civ for the rest of the game. Trade routes on sea have a 30 range and the large map mean the traders will have more or less a direct route so if we are central this will cover about half of the map. Japan's culture means we may get to spies first for another temporary +6.

There are many good options.

PS. A nice thing about Korea is it would be nice to build a few nukes and GDRs 
But they'll probably concede before we get there.

Unsure about Spain with Japan. Having 2 religions in a time is bound to produce issues, I think. Same with Russia and others.

We could try to outbuild everyone if we land Germany. But I am leaning towards aggressive play, trying to build my way to victory has not worked out so far.

I concur about the campi, Korea might be an idea here. I think Eleanor is a dud and not something one should actually play. I think we are best off at seeing what is leftover.

If they actually leave Norway to us, I think we can go full berserk!

[shallow_thought]

Do you not feel you should have gone with Canada and Sweden to give the rest of the field a chance ?

More seriously, I will look forward to your opponent analysis once the picks are all in. Have fun.