Intro
Looks like Vanrober has vastly overestimated my Pitboss capabilities, and he's going to be joining me for this one. Welcome Aboard!
I loved Vanrober's idea to learn English fruits with his PB56 naming theme, and I asked if he wanted to do something similar this game. Of the list he sent, 'fish' was the one I liked best, so we'll be doing that.
My goal for this game is simple: relax and have fun. It's something crucial that I've failed at so far, and it's absolutely my top priority here. This game is an opportunity to try out the personal strategies I've been working on recently. I understand fishing is very relaxing, so that's nice and thematic.
Fishing+Mining (Carthage Starting Techs - T0) - Mining for faster BW, Fishing to act as old-school CtH Myst giving +2 commerce from the whales.
Agriculture (T7) - Prereq to Animal Husbandry, and to farm the corn.
Animal Husbandry (T18) - To pasture the cows, and locate horses
Bronze Working (T32) - To convert to Slavery before settling, locate copper, and unlock chopping.
The Wheel (T39) - Prereq to Pottery, and to connect the 3rd city.
Pottery (T44) - Granaries, primarily in the capital but also in Salmon and Flathead.
Sailing (T51) - Lighthouses, galley for settling the island, and GLH.
Mysticism (T54) - Monuments, Masonry 20% Bonus.
Masonry (T58) - Great Lighthouse, prereq to Monotheism.
Hunting (T61) - To build spearmen.
Polytheism (T68) - Prereq to Monotheism.
Monotheism (T72) - Judaism!
Priesthood (T74) - Temple in Salmon.
Monarchy (T81) - For Hereditary Rule.
Archery (T87) - For Protective archers.
Mathematics (T92) - For boosted chops, and a prereq to Currency.
Iron Working (T96) - For jungle chops.
Currency (T104) - To not go bankrupt.
Metal Casting (T108) - For OrgRel forges, and triremes vs SD.
Code of Laws (T112) - To overflow our forge whips into ORG-Courthouses.
Machinery (T120) - For crossbows against GKC, and a prereq to Optics.
Compass (T124) - For cothons, but more importantly a prereq to Optics.
Optics (T128) - For circumnavigation(!).
Construction (T130) - For catapults.
Calendar (T131) - For Plantations.
Meditation (T132) - For Monasteries (stupid Lazteuq culture...).
Engineering (T135) - For castles, pikes, and the road movement. Triple whammy!
Horseback Riding (T139) - For knights.
Feudalism (T140) - Prereq towards knights.
Guilds (T145) - Knights.
Banking (T147) - For Mercantilism with Protective.
Civil Service (T149) - Towards Liberalism?
Aesthetics (T152) - Towards Lit/Drama
Traits
Going to be ranking these on two criteria, from 1-5:
1) Strength: How good I think it is
2) Desirability: How much I want to play it
The list is in order from least-most desirable, with a sentence or two about my thoughts. The order is more about fun than strength, so there's a large emphasis on trying new things. Any thoughts, Vanrober?
Hell No Philosophical
Strength: 4/5 (highest skillcap)
Desirability: 1/5
This is one of the best traits in the hands of the best players. We are not those players.
Financial
Strength: 2/5
Desirability: 1/5
2/5 might be too low for a trait that gets you free commerce, but I think the lighthouse nerf was a pretty big deal. I've also played it a lot. Not interested.
- - -
Probably No Charismatic
Strength: 2/5
Desirability: 2/5
Jack of all trades, but master of none. I would rather be great at a few things than good at everything.
Imperialistic
Strength: 4/5 (better on small maps)
Desirability: 2/5
This is better on a small map than Expansive, and probably the best trait there. But it's not very fun, and on a big map I would rather have Creative or Expansive.
- - -
Worth Considering Organized
Strength: 5/5 (better with water)
Desirability: 3/5
Organised is my pick for the strongest trait in CtH, at least on maps with lots of water. Cheap lighthouses come into play pretty quickly, so it even helps with expansion! If the capital has seafood, I'll consider it purely for the strength. But I've played it twice in a row, so I'm open to picking other traits. This is the first trait on the list I'd pick, especially in combination with Protective (Lieu Ye) or Creative (Zara Yaqob).
Industrious
Strength: 3/5 (better with less players)
Desirability: 3/5
I have a higher opinion of Industrious than most players here; the forge bonus is such a big deal. It also gets better on a map with only 6 players. However, as with Organised I've played it a lot recently, so I'd only pick it for a very good reason.
Aggressive
Strength: 3/5 (better on small maps)
Desirability: 3/5
This just isn't my style of game. I want to play a game at some point where I force myself to learn classical warfare, so I'd pick Aggressive in that game. Maybe that's this one, but otherwise we won't pick this.
- - -
The Good Stuff Expansive
Strength: 3/5 (better on big maps)
Desirability: 4/5
I think this gets much better on bigger maps, because the granaries have time to be used in the expansion curve. However, I don't think it's the best trait, so we'd need to pair it specifically with Organised or Protective for an economic boost.
Spiritual
Strength: 3/5
Desirability: 4/5
Serfdom is nuts, yo. I've got a real hankering to play Spiritual and abuse Serfdom/Slavery swaps until the end of time. Perhaps Asoka (ORG/SPI) of the Aztecs for a religion (Org Rel / Theocracy) and Sacrificial Altar? That actually sounds really fun...
Creative
Strength: 4/5
Desirability: 4/5
I really want to play with Creative, because I haven't been able to yet. Maybe we pair it with IMP, for a crazy start, or ORG for those sweet building discounts.
Protective
Strength: 3/5 (better with few players)
Desirability: 5/5
I've still never played with the new trait!! I would pair this with IMP (but you've already done that) or ORG with the Great Lighthouse, or EXP with Celts or Carthage. Better in games with few players, since you're less likely to get foreign trade routes.
(May 11th, 2021, 23:06)Charriu Wrote: Just curious. Where do you see the connection between PRO celts and EXP?
That's a good question. Broadly speaking, I think new cities become productive and defensible extremely quickly.
More specifically, here's an example. Let's assume that each new city has at least 1 food resource and forest (reasonable for RB maps). Let's also assume that there are 1-2 workers improving the new city, that can connect it, improve the food, and chop the forest. We can 1-whip granary->dun at size 2, and with the chop the dun should finish in 1 turn. That means that in <10 turns, the new city has:
- a PRO trade route
- a granary
- walls, making it a nightmare to attack (a deterrent to other players)
- a monument (functionally) for culture, thanks to the dun
- some overflow into a defensive unit for the next city, that will have Guerilla 1, and maybe PRO promotions too
This seems like an amazingly fast ROI on a settler, to me. Much better than IMP Celts. Some people might say that you could just build a monument instead, but I think those people underestimate the deterrence value of Duns. I doubt Mjmd or Jowy will be attacking the Celts any time soon, for example.
Of course, there are problems too. The big one is tech: you'd need Pottery, Bronze Working, and Masonry, plus the Celts have atrocious starting techs. Maybe that alone is enough to make this unviable. In addition, Vanrober has played the Celts recently, so that combo is more one that I would like to try in general, rather than this game.
Im glad you decided for the fish!!! I just know 2 fish names in english. Salmon and Tuna. I like Salmon as a capitol name
About the traits. I think we think mostly the same in several of them. I like a bit less CRE, i think im not skilled enough to make it work. But i would love you to play it if you feel like, Also i got a bit disapointed on PRO in the economical part, i would only play it for sinergy with celts or spain or natives.
I really like your idea of Asoka of Aztec. I think it could work with HRE too.
Agr i think its nice in big maps since armies are bigger too, its true you lose a bit of the hability of damage early other neighbours like Mjmd on us on PB56 but i think the economical part of it on bigger maps might be good? Not sure, i guess we will need to see it on PB59 in several weeks.
So i pretty much agree on your rating. I would like to play ORG as main eco trait. And then either SPI, CRE, EXP sounds well to me. Being CRE the one i like less. But it would be nice to play something more weird, like AGR paired somehow so we can def early from any harass and we have a decent lategame eco trait.
So i think its about something we are more used to play and play kind of more optimous strategy or play for total fun with a more random strategy hahaha. I dont feel like having much time this first month so really, play something you feel fine with it. Ill support you as much as i m able to!
(May 12th, 2021, 00:28)Amicalola Wrote: I doubt Mjmd or Jowy will be attacking the Celts again any time soon, for example.
Yes, Mjmd would never be as silly as to attack Pro Celts before catapults unless he has a teammate encouraging him?
Fixed that for myself. The first time was understandable! Though I can't say it worked out, which was more what I meant; Charriu and Vanrober succeeded with that goal.
(May 12th, 2021, 04:40)vanrober Wrote: MMMM so interesting this is already going!!!.
Im glad you decided for the fish!!! I just know 2 fish names in english. Salmon and Tuna. I like Salmon as a capitol name
About the traits. I think we think mostly the same in several of them. I like a bit less CRE, i think im not skilled enough to make it work. But i would love you to play it if you feel like, Also i got a bit disapointed on PRO in the economical part, i would only play it for sinergy with celts or spain or natives.
I really like your idea of Asoka of Aztec. I think it could work with HRE too.
Agr i think its nice in big maps since armies are bigger too, its true you lose a bit of the hability of damage early other neighbours like Mjmd on us on PB56 but i think the economical part of it on bigger maps might be good? Not sure, i guess we will need to see it on PB59 in several weeks.
So i pretty much agree on your rating. I would like to play ORG as main eco trait. And then either SPI, CRE, EXP sounds well to me. Being CRE the one i like less. But it would be nice to play something more weird, like AGR paired somehow so we can def early from any harass and we have a decent lategame eco trait.
So i think its about something we are more used to play and play kind of more optimous strategy or play for total fun with a more random strategy hahaha. I dont feel like having much time this first month so really, play something you feel fine with it. Ill support you as much as i m able to!
Thanks for your thoughts! That's good info on PRO, perhaps I'm overvaluing it through inexperience. My assessment is that the economic bonus is useful early (pre-Sailing/Writing) and late (post-Mercantilism), but quite weak between then. Would you say that's fair?
I'm glad you like the idea of Asoka of Aztec. That's one that's sticking in my mind, for whatever reason. I think the reason I like it is that with every Slavery-swap, you can whip twice and then the happiness is refreshed in 10 turns for the next swap. Alternatively, there are a few other SPI leaders I like: Justinian (IMP/SPI), Isabella (EXP/SPI) and maybe even Montezuma (AGG/SPI), though he's more of a meme. I've heard Miguelito+Rusten's 54 thread is fantastic for SPI play, so we could try studying with that.
Sounds like another option we're both happy with is ORG + EXP/IMP/CRE. I think this is the pure 'best' pick in CtH2.0, though it matters more what you want to play, since engagement is more important. But it's good to have that other option.
Finally, we're both pretty happy with AGG + EXP/IMP/CRE, in case we just want to crack some skulls. I'll have a think about it over the week.
(May 12th, 2021, 16:46)Amicalola Wrote: Thanks for your thoughts! That's good info on PRO, perhaps I'm overvaluing it through inexperience. My assessment is that the economic bonus is useful early (pre-Sailing/Writing) and late (post-Mercantilism), but quite weak between then. Would you say that's fair?
I'm glad you like the idea of Asoka of Aztec. That's one that's sticking in my mind, for whatever reason. I think the reason I like it is that with every Slavery-swap, you can whip twice and then the happiness is refreshed in 10 turns for the next swap. Alternatively, there are a few other SPI leaders I like: Justinian (IMP/SPI), Isabella (EXP/SPI) and maybe even Montezuma (AGG/SPI), though he's more of a meme. I've heard Miguelito+Rusten's 54 thread is fantastic for SPI play, so we could try studying with that.
Sounds like another option we're both happy with is ORG + EXP/IMP/CRE. I think this is the pure 'best' pick in CtH2.0, though it matters more what you want to play, since engagement is more important. But it's good to have that other option.
Finally, we're both pretty happy with AGG + EXP/IMP/CRE, in case we just want to crack some skulls. I'll have a think about it over the week.
So what you say of Pro is true, the thing is that pro is good and just good for the first 70 turns. And then i ve never last to take mercantilism so i dont see that option really much on my head, and that might be a reason of my undervaluation. I really think ORG is better in everysense.
I studied it (PB54). But they are just much better in all senses. I would have apreciate a bit more of overview screenshots to understand more what was going on. But its really nice to read. I read it for PB59 when i thought Josh abandoned us xD. Also i readed a Krill game PB5 or something like that that i think its really nice to see SPI importance. Its one of the ones that have still screenshots.
And yeah im glad we are reading this pretty much the same right now xD
