[PB61 - Spoiler] bell's uncreatively named spoiler thread

[bellarch]

So this is my spoiler thread! Yay. I'll post my initial thoughts on the game and picks and stuff in a bit.

Edit: Also, mjmd, feel free to start posting immediately! if you want

[bellarch]

So it looks like we're doing a snake pick, based on the votes (I was vote #4 for snake - I apologize for not getting those in earlier, people; it was purely because I am dumb . . . ) Since there appear to be seven of us, we need a top 7 for civs and leaders. My initial thoughts on leader order is something like:

1. Victoria
2. Willem
3. Charlemagne
-- (I'm less sure about the order below here)
4. Elizabeth
5. Wang Kon
6. Gilgamesh?
7. Catherine?
with potential sleeper options being Huayna, Ragnar, Sitting Bull, Pericles, Pacal, and Cyrus (specifically if it looks like resources will be sparse), not necessarily in that order.

Having looked over the CtH changes and playtested a bit, Financial still looks like the best overall trait - economy is really important, as always, and cottages are the best way to do that (and the one I'm most accustomed to . . . ) Imperialistic is also useful for early expansion. I've also playtested quite a bit with Charlemagne, looking to see if Protective is good with the changes, and I think it's good enough to keep an early economy going that he should be a viable pick. I'd also be happy with Creative (yay cheap libraries! yay free border pops!) or Philosophical, I think. I'm envisioning a more tech-heavy gameplan, going with a farmer's gambit with extra military at the start before segueing into war mode sometime between knights and cavs, so I'm prioritizing economy and expansion here.

Of course I could easily be missing something, so mjmd feel free to point out if I'm being dumb lol

[Mjmd]

I may be infamous for picking Victoria of India (this was pre latest lighthouse Fin nerf but still) so your #1 Victoria pick means we should get along just fine.

I may post trait thoughts tonight. Was going to see if you were going to elaborate first.

[civac2]

Didn't you pick India even when the fast workers were 70 hammers?

[Charriu]

I may be infamous for picking Victoria of India

Let me rephrase that for you

I may be infamous for being Victoria of India

[bellarch]

I may be infamous for picking Victoria of India (this was pre latest lighthouse Fin nerf but still) so your #1 Victoria pick means we should get along just fine.

I may post trait thoughts tonight. Was going to see if you were going to elaborate first.

India is also my top civ pick! I'll also be posting some stuff on civs in a bit - would be doing it now, but uhhh the forum kind of ate it

[bellarch]

So, civ thoughts. This won't be in a particular order - in my experience, traits have a much bigger impact on how the game is played than the UU/UB -- and of course, some traits make particular civs better, so the civ pick can be conditional on the leader pick! But my initial thoughts:

(the obvious pick)
India - this is the obvious top civ pick; fast worker shenanigans are extremely good, and Mining is one of the best starting techs.
(less obviously good picks)
Byzantium - Cataphracts are just a very good unit. Wheel/Mysticism is less good, though.
China - from what I understand, Cho-ko-nus (sp?) can be very good, and agriculture/mining is the best starting tech pair possible
France - musketeers are useful stack defenders if we're planning a war using knights, cuirassiers, or cavs, and agriculture/wheel is very good.
England - If we're going to war in the Renaissance/Industrial eras - whether attacking or defending - Redcoats will be very effective. The UB isn't bad either. The worst thing here is probably the Fishing starting tech.
Khmer - a +1 food aqueduct is especially good now that the aqueduct is cheaper. Particularly good if combined with Expansive.
Russia - Cossacks have always been at least a decent UU, and moving the UB to a university replacement makes it actually useful. Hunting/Mining is probably the second-best tech combo too. This is on my radar especially for a scenario where we end up with Philosophical.
Celts - I'm not really sold on them, to be honest, but if we get Protective (or a Stone resource) the Dun is potentially a cheap, whippable early culture building
Mongolia - a +5 exp stable is solid for the majority of the game.
(potential sleeper picks)
Persia - looking at the latest CtH version, the UB now boosts trade income, which could be good, and the Immortal is essentially perfect for REX purposes. Agriculture/Hunting is also a decent starting tech pair.
Arabia? - Camel Archers seem like a really good thing to have with the March promotion - mobility is killer in essentially any strategy game, and so a stack of Camel Archers/Curiassers/Cavs that heal on the go and are thus even more mobile than the typical horse unit seems like it could be good. Madrassas are also useful if we plan for a monk economy or something. Of course, Wheel/Mysticism makes me less inclined to pick it.

That's probably not every consideration we could make for civs, but it's kind of what I'm thinking right now. I'm less confident about the civ pick in general, so this is definitely somewhere where input could be helpful!

[Mjmd]

Didn't you pick India even when the fast workers were 70 hammers?

65? I honestly don't remember, but yes I did lol. PB52 I was doing pretty good until I got in over my head in late game warfare vs OH and then also in PB54 where I was on track for 4 cities by turn 42 or something silly and then I realized I was staring SD across a narrow short land bridge and got warrior rushed. Still with them managed to claw my way back to being relevant on our continent.

I may be infamous for being Victoria of India

 

Anyways:
1st note that with mod changing tech costs that mining / fishing is generally considered the best tech pair possible now. IE agriculture isn't the end all be all it was in base BTS (for those unaware last couple base bts games Realms did agriculture was worth a full point in the picking system and you only got 5 points).

Generally when picking India I use my first pick on it instead of a leader. I still like Victoria, but there are replacements and she hasn't been picked since latest financial nerf (other than large PB59 game where we got random leaders).

Caveat to everything: a lot can depend on size Tarkeel ends up on for map. How much room do we have ect.

Just going down your list
Byzantium would require a start without a lot of worker techs. Also, require a larger map as people SHOULD target you before UU.
China is still good even with agri cost going down. Still only UU that does collateral off boats. UB isn't nothing.
France is just fine - all of its stuff hits a little bit later. Something that takes some adjustment for multiplayer is there is a HUGE emphasis on early game snowball.
England - if the map is really big I like them better than France especially if you take financial. Good starting techs
Khmer - no one has picked since the UU was nerfed, but I still think its a good civ. I don't even think you HAVE to be expansive to pair with.
Russia - while both English and Russia are late game, the English UB is just sooo much better. Also, England has better starting techs. That being said 2 movers are valued much higher than 1 movers. That being said by this era a lot of warfare is actually about the navies (something I wasn't fully prepared for entering multiplayer).
Celts - Protective celts has certainly been done a lot. I'll get to protective in next post, but overall over rated. If it was a tighter map maybe.
Mongolia - How early can be beat down is again map size dependent. They are pretty good at it. With barbs being on it means people have to build more axes and therefore less spears early which is useful. Also it should be noted it looks like no score passed which is good for being aggressive.
Persia - not a fan unless its tight and then would rather just choose Egypt for UU. UB is subpar.
Arabia - Just like Byzantium would require specific start. Kind of a cool go religion thing, but overall would rather pick Byzantium.

I also like Rome because of techs and overall top 5 UU (you don't have to be aggressive even although I've lived that life and its fun). UB also not nothing (probably on par with Persia).

[Mjmd]

Also like Inca. Some game I'm going to pick when I have a dry agri resource. Get to be part expansive.

Anyways traits:

Imperialistic: the reason imperialistic goes so well with India is you then use that second worker and with the 50% bonus you chop out a settler probably at pop 2 before you even have a warrior. Imperialistic is also nice on food poor maps as you can easily 2 pop whip settlers without having to put a chop into them (usual method for non imperialistic early). You get more city growth turns this way and save forests / worker time for other projects. I will note I ded lurked Amica in PB55 who picked India after fast worker was reverted back to 60 hammers and was played without Imperialistic. That was the 2nd best start I've seen on realms though and I had to jump through a lot of hoops when doing early micro for Amica. Also to note it gets worse on higher difficulties and larger the map.
Financial: Still best late game economic trait. Extra commerce basically means that all the modifier buildings are extra good. This is what sets it apart from other traits.
Organized: between the savings on Civic upkeep (which start before financial kicks in) and multiple building discounts organized is a very strong 2nd economic trait.
Protective: Protective is now ok for economy while being stupid annoying on defense. Basically an early anti crash economic trait while still trying to take some far out spots. Picks back up once in mercantilism, but would still pick fin or organized over.
Charismatic: Swiss army knife of doing random things that always make it pretty good but not high in my normal snake pick. That being said Amica picked for PB55 that I was ded lurking and was pretty good.
Industrious: its fun but high variance (I recommend reading my PB60 thread as I attempt to randomly teach Thrawn things, just skp all my bellyaching). I wouldn't recommend unless you are really feeling.
Philosophical: Alternative economic trait. At mercy of map maker to give you a high food city or two. As well it is a fairly high skill trait.
Expansive: If the map is super big I could see instead of Imperialistic. Both because overall speed isn't as important and more likely to reach late game. Amount of food and happy is one of those unknown that affects.
Creative: Some games this looks great and some games its worthless and you don't know beforehand. The larger the map the less I like because takes away one of the advantages of muscling in on spots.
Spiritual: did get a buff with serfdom being buffed. Also some cool stuff you can do with it. Miguilito used very well in PB54. Not usually on my list as high skill level required.
Aggressive: only on tight map and even then only with a civ with early UU that can benefit (Rome being prime candidate). Better than it used to be, but still want to muscle spots with. Treated me well in PB56, but have to see size.

[bellarch]

Also like Inca. Some game I'm going to pick when I have a dry agri resource. Get to be part expansive.

Anyways traits:

Imperialistic: the reason imperialistic goes so well with India is you then use that second worker and with the 50% bonus you chop out a settler probably at pop 2 before you even have a warrior. Imperialistic is also nice on food poor maps as you can easily 2 pop whip settlers without having to put a chop into them (usual method for non imperialistic early). You get more city growth turns this way and save forests / worker time for other projects. I will note I ded lurked Amica in PB55 who picked India after fast worker was reverted back to 60 hammers and was played without Imperialistic. That was the 2nd best start I've seen on realms though and I had to jump through a lot of hoops when doing early micro for Amica. Also to note it gets worse on higher difficulties and larger the map.
Financial: Still best late game economic trait. Extra commerce basically means that all the modifier buildings are extra good. This is what sets it apart from other traits.
Organized: between the savings on Civic upkeep (which start before financial kicks in) and multiple building discounts organized is a very strong 2nd economic trait.
Protective: Protective is now ok for economy while being stupid annoying on defense. Basically an early anti crash economic trait while still trying to take some far out spots. Picks back up once in mercantilism, but would still pick fin or organized over.
Charismatic: Swiss army knife of doing random things that always make it pretty good but not high in my normal snake pick. That being said Amica picked for PB55 that I was ded lurking and was pretty good.
Industrious: its fun but high variance (I recommend reading my PB60 thread as I attempt to randomly teach Thrawn things, just skill all my bellyaching). I wouldn't recommend unless you are really feeling.
Philosophical: Alternative economic trait. At mercy of map maker to give you a high food city or two. As well it is a fairly high skill trait.
Expansive: If the map is super big I could see instead of Imperialistic. Both because overall speed isn't as important and more likely to reach late game. Amount of food and happy is one of those unknown that affects.
Creative: Some games this looks great and some games its worthless and you don't know beforehand. The larger the map the less I like because takes away one of the advantages of muscling in on spots.
Spiritual: did get a buff with serfdom being buffed. Also some cool stuff you can do with it. Miguilito used very well in PB54. Not usually on my list as high skill level required.
Aggressive: only on tight map and even then only with a civ with early UU that can benefit (Rome being prime candidate). Better than it used to be, but still want to muscle spots with. Treated me well in PB56, but have to see size.

Inca's definitely a civ that I was thinking about at one point, but I was unsure how good they would be with all the nerfs applied from the patch. I wasn't thinking about the Terrace irrigating nearby dry agriculture resources, though.

To respond briefly to the more interesting points on traits (although this is all good and useful information!):

Organized: I was discounting this because (a) slightly lower difficulty than I'm used to (b) I've found that it's markets, not courthouses, that really fix early economic problems. I suppose this may change though, given that the goal is to do an extreme early game snowball, which probably entails more cities earlier.
Protective: honestly I'm partially valuing this because it helps to protect against the possibility of an early-game rush if we end up next to like Aggressive Rome or something. Not sure how relevant that really is - I suppose that's why I have you around to ask questions!
Charismatic: honestly this always seems like it should be better than it turns out to be for me. The issue is that you're usually whipping off unhappy pop or otherwise have happy from resources or HR, so the increased happy cap (imo the best part) turns out not to be relevant.
Industrious: gets several direct and indirect buffs from CtH, but I'm not convinced the benefits are all that worth it - wonders are easy to overvalue. That being said, it's perhaps something to consider if we could be the only Industrious civ or have stone/marble at start.
Creative: I'll say here that I personally consider the best part of Creative to be the cheap libraries and not the extra starting culture - cheaper libraries means more of them faster, and thus more commerce multipliers and faster Great Scientist access. But on second thought, that benefit is also dependent on a highish-food map.