Beating MOO1 on Impossible

[rgp151]

I have beat MOO1 on Impossible, but I usually struggle to do it and fail quite often. I'd say doing what I do I can win about one of out 5 games. What are some tips for greater success? 

I have beat it under the following conditions:

1) Race = Klackon
2) I get Improved Ecological Restoration and  Reduced Industrial Waste 80% to start
3) I get Improved Robotic Controls III
4) I'm able to find pretty good planets to start with at least one decent sized Rich planet that is Dead or less

But I find that unless those things happen, I typically can't win a game.

Generally, in terms of population management, I'm not super OCD on that. I'll typically make a colony, then send 5 or 10 pop  to it and that's it.

I do try to really pump out colony ships once I get by home world fully built out with factories, and of course I put scouts on all surrounding planets to hold them as long as possible.

[haphazard1]

Welcome, rgp151! Always nice to see another MOO1 fan on the forums.

Population management is pretty important, mostly to try to keep your planets in the "sweet spot" for pop growth (between one third and two thirds of max pop. You can always spend on Eco to force pop growth, but it gets expensive. Managing your planets to get as much natural (free) pop growth as possible helps a lot.

If you have not already done so, check out the OSGs (Orion Succession Games) here at Realms Beyond. Lots of good information and examples of good (and sometimes not so good ) play. OSG-38 is currently ongoing, and has been a pretty fun and challenging game. There are also some very good write ups of MOO1 games from site regulars Sulla and Sirian, among others. Sulla also has some streamed MOO1 games on his You Tube channel where he explains a lot about what he is doing and why, which can be very helpful for improving your play. (I learned a lot from them.)

[RefSteel]

Haphazard makes some great suggestions - Succession Games have the advantage that we often report our moves in detail, especially in the early going, and if you like to watch videos, Sullla's streams not only show everything he does, but are good examples of how to win even with the quick play and sometimes-suboptimal choices that result in various ways from the time/entertainment demands of playing in front of a real-time audience.  (Sullla does still micromanage certain things like transports and factory/pop growth more than you might want to, but much of that micro work can be safely skipped (I always skip it, anyway!) as long as you know what you're aiming for instead and how you're going to get there.)

There's no silver bullet for winning at MoO on Impossible, but here are some tips related to what you were talking about above:

1) If you haven't won as the Psilons, you may be waiting too long to start research, or (though as we've shown in OSG-38, you can win with no specific focus on any tech field at all!) need to focus more on where you want your research to go.  In particular:
2) Improved Eco is very important early, but Reduced Waste is of much (much) lesser importance, especially if you do have Imp Eco.  Terraforming +10 is extremely valuable for the price though (before, but in addition to Imp Eco if you have both).  Other than that, it's very dependent on your situation; Range 4 (or 5) or Duralloy Armor (for long-range colships, especially as the Klackons) or Controlled Something Environment can sometimes be the most important techs in the game.
3) RC3 is great, but if you don't have it (or even if you do!) it means you need to think about other ways of increasing your production - peacefully or otherwise.
4) Again, check out OSG-38 for how we developed with the planets we could reach, identifying what we needed to claim them in time, when all the rich worlds nearby were infernos or worse (or didn't become rich until they were in Silicoid hands) when playing against the rocks!

On population management:  You don't have to be OCD about it.  Just try something different:  Instead of 5-10 pop, try sending 5-20 pop, with 5 only for small, hopeless worlds and 20 for anything good. ("Good" including nearly anything above size 60!)  That's for the first colony.  For later colonies, you may be able to send more from a world that's still low on factories, aiming to keep planets that haven't maxed factories yet in the 1/3 to 2/3 range, as Haphazard said.

On pumping out colony ships:  Sometimes, it's worth getting one or two before your homeworld has full factories if they're really important - but more importantly, if you need range or controlled environment tech to claim an important world, you should identify the need, and then start researching (at least from your second world) before you start building colony ships at your homeworld.  If you wait until after you've built all your factories and all the colships for worlds you can reach to even start on the techs you'll need, you'll likely be too late.

And finally:  You might try playing as a weak race on Hard, or on Hard (or even Average) with different variant rules that seem fun to you - both for fun on its own, and because trying different things can help you see what's working and what isn't for you.

[haphazard1]

I agree with pretty much everything RefSteel said. On initial pop for new planets, I like to aim for the new planet having about 25-30% of its max pop if I have the pop available to send. That gets the new world up to the sweet spot on the growth curve, and also gives you enough of a work force to start getting some factories built.

You might try playing as the Klackons (if you haven't already). Their super-productive workers make getting new planets going easier than for other races. They are generally considered one of the strong races for good reason.

[DaveV]

I know from personal experience that it's easy to get stuck in a rut. One of the things I've learned from the succession games is that each game may call for a different strategy. One of the strengths of MOO is that each game is potentially very different from the last one, with different techs available, different stars in range, and different neighbors.

Some bullet points that you may already be doing, but these were mistakes I used to make:
- build colony ships before factories on your homeworld; I used to build up to max factories before building my second colony ship, and this put me too far behind in development.
- be willing to trade for techs, especially key ones.
- tiny bombers are the most efficient way to remove enemy missile bases.
- it can be worthwhile to sacrifice a world and then re-invade to steal techs if you have a lot of population but are lagging in tech.
- it's almost always a good idea to put the best engines available on your ships. With better speed, your fleet can effectively cover several worlds, or beat the AIs to a target.

One other thing that helped me: it's worth reloading sometimes to test out different ship designs or different strategies. In a competitive game or succession game, reloading is obviously not allowed, but you can learn a lot by seeing how things would play out if you did something different. Maybe you can win that key combat if you used different designs or concentrated on a different enemy target. Maybe you can settle that key planet if you emphasize the right range or eco techs. If you're trying to improve your game, sometimes using the time machine will help you see how different decisions affect the outcome. Or you can go back to the very beginning and play the same game again if you think you had a winning position but messed it up somehow.

[rgp151]

Just watched some of Sulla's videos and played another impossible game, but it wasn't a very good test as I easily dominated it anyway. Was Klackons and very first planet, 2 parsecs away, was an Arid Artifact planet pop 65. I got 10+ Planetology, which wasn't the greatest possible, but still opened the tree up and saved some early research. Also got pretty much all the good starting techs. -80% pollution, Enhanced Eco, RC-III, even PS-V. Plus I got pretty good planet map. So yeah, I ran away with that one. I did make some improvements to population control that seemed to help adn make it even better. Humans were the first to 6 systems, but I was first to 12. Pretty much ran away with it from there.

[haphazard1]

Sounds like a fun game, rgp151. Getting a strong second planet can make a huge difference in the difficulty of a game. Our second planet being mineral poor in the current OSG-38 has been a big part of why that game has been so challenging. Our variant rule for equal research has also contributed, of course.

I hope you keep having fun with MOO.

[rgp151]

I'd say that I think Klackons are stronger on Impossible than Psilons. I guess it depends a little on the number of planets you have in range to start. With more planets in range Klackons are certainly better. But I am winning a game now, which already in the final stages, that I am playing as Psilons. I've been behind in tech for almost all of the game until very recently, but I remained close enough to stay relevant. My closest neighbor is Meklar, and I was able to get on good terms with them and get an alliance with them that has lasted all game. They have been a good partner, since they have been strong, but just behind the top races. Somehow Bulrathi became the dominant race, which is always a pain. Klackons of course are the other top race, although recently I took over as top race. But I got on good with the Meklars and they sort of shielded me and never attacked. I was able to get I think 7 planets before really developing a military. None of them very good, but I did have an Inferno Ultra Rich 25 in my back yard, which was able to get things going. I didn't get reduced waste 80% from Const, but did get Eco. I also didn't get RCIII, which was odd as Psilons, but I got IV, so it was ok. So I think being able to win this without optimal situation is an improvement, even with Psilons.

One thing Sulla does not do that I do is I always favor Computer techs. I always start pretty much researching just Construction and Planetology, sometimes I'll add Propulsion in before getting my first techs in the others. So I'll wait to get my first Const and Planet techs first, then add in Propulsion. And for a while I'll just research Construction, Planetology and Propulsion. Then I'll add in Computers. Then I'll get to a point where I hit = and then put one additional click from tech into Computers, so basically I'm doing 5 additional clicks on computers relative to everything else. And I pretty much keep it that way from there on out, but I'll modify things on occasion.

Then I always put 2 clicks into spies on every AI. And if my computer tech is higher than theirs I'll use Espionage. I always get a lot of techs that way. In this game, however, the Meklars started out ahead of me on Computers and remained that way the whole game, into the Advanced Techs. And since I was allied with them, I never got to steal from on them, but I traded techs a fair amount with them.

I was able to take on Sakkra early, but had to wait until I got HEF and Neutronium bombs to really take on anyone else. I traded for the bombs from the Meklars. Klackons were being Klackons and making huge stacks. Had to rely on Warp Dissipator for a long time to deal with both the Klackons and Bulrathi. Had to rely on being able to stop their ships and just pound them from outside of their range. Prior to HEF though I had to defend with Warp Dissipators and Heavy beam weapons, although that didn't always work. I eventually got X Planetary Shields and Pulson missiles, which was good enough to stop Klackon attacks, always the Bulrathi could still take my planets, but with heavy losses from missile bases along, so I was able to use ships and bases to keep them at bay. Lost a couple of non-critical planets, but then I got Scatter Pack VII and then X and then XX shields, which held them for a long time, though they have sent stacks that can take such planets with 50+ basses recently. But now I've got high tech ships and warp 9 and star gates, so I'm pretty secure at this point. Oh I also took Orion to help me catch up in tech, which worked out.

[haphazard1]

Sounds like a challenging game, rgp151. Meklar can be very tough opponents if they get time to build out all their factories. Getting them as solid allies is very helpful. (As long as they are not Erratic....) Getting to the advanced techs tends to mean a very long game. Holding out that long against tough opposition is good work.

Spying can be a very important tool, especially if you do not have the tech to fight in space. Being behind in computers makes that very tricky, at least if you are not playing the Darloks. I have had a couple Darlok games where I just stole everything, putting most of my own research into computers. That can be fun.

[rgp151]

Yeah, I actually did win an Impossible game with Darloks back in the day. I've failed a few times, but they do have some advantages. It's interesting because I'd day that Darloks are only good on Impossible and bad on anything lower. But as you say, on Impossible they give you the advantage that you can put virtually all research into Computers and not fall behind.

IN this game I was able to get just enough planets to be able to hold on and research my way into superiority without have to be too aggressive. The Meklars did actually take a planet from me early. The last "free planet" there was and they got to it about 2 turns after me and then they started sending pop to it and I just let them have it. It turns out that was a good choice.