Poll: CtH Rome and America nerfs

[Miguelito]

Details and arguments see the main thread.

Proposed Rome nerf: Increase Praetorian hammer cost from 50h (already increased over BtS) to 55h

Proposed America nerfs

1. Carnegie Public Library gives +1GPP instead of 2
   
2. Carnegie Public Library stays as it is, the Minuteman UU is reverted to the Navy SEAL from BtS
   

you can place two votes

[Miguelito]

Reasoning for my votes:
- I don't know if there has even been an issue with current Rome? Maybe in PB 66? Either way I think the existing nerf is heavy enough.
- Gutting the American UB would much reduce the identity of a truly unique and interesting building. It is fine being strong, other civs have very strong UUs.

[Mjmd]

To me the Roman unit stands out and I think a lot of people get confused because they think yes I can probably stuff enough units defensively on a hill city and be fine. But once you add in cats they are actually still good on offense as they can soak better. But yes my main problem would still be that defensively they are very good for their cost. Factor in that on defense they are fine as hitters for your cat stack for almost the entire game. Their shelf life is just insane.

I think the closest UU to Americas UB comparison would probably be the original fast worker where it just worked completely differently than every other civs. We nerfed that rightly so. Americas UB is unique and that is the problem. There really isn't anything to stop someone from building HG and just getting free MoM and chaining 3 golden ages close together SACRIFICING NOTHING. Most other GP focused UBs you have to sacrifice something, with Americas you just build it...... I'm not even saying my strat is the only broken thing to do with it. You can probably till do broken things, but you might at least have to pick philosophic.

[Charriu]

But Mjmd you are missing some crucial points in your PB70 analysis. You had extensive NAPs in place and then were able to capitalize on my blander during the trade embargo. Take those factors away and it becomes a lot harder to go that route.

[Mjmd]

I finished a merchant I used to get to rifles without working any specialists for over 10 turns.......... Even with the dog pile interruption I was on my way to an incredibly early 4th GA. Yes without your blunder its possible the phil player who went early forges could have stolen MoM from me, by actually working specialists and choosing phil. I literally just expanded and teched to currency and then got MoM for free. No worked specialists slowing me down, no special tech path.

Edit: I specifically chose NOT to play phil with America btw to prove how busted it is just in a normal mode.

[Amicalola]

To present some (hopefully unbiased) discussion, I agree with you both once and disagree once. Praets are too strong. You can't realistically attack a praets player until Infantry, and that's just silly. Agreed with Mjmd that it's about their defensive strength, not their offensive ability (which is long overrated).

Re the Carnegie Lib though, I'm not convinced Mjmd that your dominance was entirely about the libraries and not about the nuances of that particular game. Maybe you're right, but one game is not the deciding factor for me, and I'd want to see it run again before making the decision. Contrast this to praets, which have dominated the CtH meta literally since CtH existed, afaik.

I don't feel very strongly about any of this, fwiw. I'm happy with either decision of either question. But there is another opinion.

[Tarkeel]

I both agree and disagree with you Amica: Shock-promoted cuirs make short work of praets, but those aren't used in many games. Completely agree that they are overrated on the attack. I still voted to keep praets as they are though: they are a don't-lose tool instead of a winning one.

[Charriu]

Just to bring this up, but if the longevity of the praet is the problem, then instead of increasing its cost maybe we should add upgrade options. Currently they upgrade only to maceman, meaning if you want to continue building praets you have to avoid Machinery or Civil Service. Since way fewer techs depend on Civil Service it is easier to avoid that.
Now if we would add pikemen to the possible upgrade paths you would also have to avoid Engineering, Chemistry and everything depending on it. It's not much, but not being able to field pikemen because you want to keep praets is a harder choice to make. And I'm not talking about the added road speed and castles which you also miss out on.

[greenline]

Has there been any games where the defensive value of the Praet proved decisive? Just seems like a UU version of protective. I'm fine with the hammer nerf, though.

I don't think either of the America library nerfs go far enough, but I'd lean to the GPP nerf, all things considered.

[scooter]

Re the Carnegie Lib though, I'm not convinced Mjmd that your dominance was entirely about the libraries and not about the nuances of that particular game. Maybe you're right, but one game is not the deciding factor for me, and I'd want to see it run again before making the decision. Contrast this to praets, which have dominated the CtH meta literally since CtH existed, afaik.

I voted yes nerf 2 -> 1, but I do agree the UB broken-ness is being overstated. I certainly didn't feel like the UB was untouchable or super oppressive in that game or anything. I think ORG on a high maintenance map did WAY more work, for example. Plus a lot of just general game factors.