May 30th, 2024, 22:06
(This post was last modified: June 26th, 2024, 22:48 by Dreylin.)
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Maybe a Star Trek theme?
Easy reference location:
Gavagai - Bismark (EXP, IND) of India (Fast Worker, Jail)
Superdeath - Kublai Khan (AGG, CRE) of Sumeria (Vulture, Ziggurat)
Thrawn - Boudica (AGG, CHA) of Native America (Dog Soldier, Totem Pole)
Magic Science - Louis XIV (CRE, IND) of Persia (Immortal, Bazaar)
Dreylin - Saladin (SPI, PRO) of Inca (Quechua, Terrace)
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The capital BFC is locked, but anything else you see can still change.
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That ... is some land. (Thanks scooter!)
One of CHA, AGG or PRO seems like it would be a good plan for Raging Barbs & unpredictability of map weirdness. They say you always pick based on the previous game, and maybe that's true since I'm kinda thinking I want to try CHA again since I liked the parts I used in PB75, but didn't feel like I got the chance to work the full potential of the trait. PRO's boosted internal routes could also be helpful in a small game where trade connections may be hard to come by. (nice long river past the capital also makes instant connection of the second city an early economy boost.
I also feel like I want to play either SPI or PHI to give me more opportunities to play with different civic combinations (PB75 was my first with the new Serfdom and I was impressed). I feel like I don't have the planning / familiarity to make the most of PHI though.
Brennus of Egypt maybe and actually commit to the religious line?
I'll think some more and maybe run some weighted random picks.
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Reporting in!
CtH boosted AGG or PRO could indeed suit well for a raging barbarian game. I'm curious what tricks Scooter has used for this game, as it looks like a bit out of the norm ruleswise. If I had designed a post-apocalyptic theme for a civ 4 game, I would use world builder to add remnants of "old civilization" around the map, such as barbarian cities with infrastructure or even pre-placed wonders. Or maybe a limited amount of roaming stronger barbs locked on a different land mass, guarding something valuable? This is pure speculation, not sure if any of this affects leader/civ choice.
Which additional starting tech are you thinking about? A combinaiton of hunting + agriculture + something for faster animal husbandry? Perhaps fishing to work that forested lake (assuming this is intentional addition by map-maker) for a better chance to get a religion? I'm a total beginner in CtH multiplayer games, so feel free to ignore any of my suggestions.
Final note to my ramblings: interesting that Vikings and China are banned, maybe galley movement + attacking from boats is important in this map (again, could be some landmasses with special barbarians roaming around, guarding goodies?).
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Hello and welcome!
And you've immediately helped since I had managed to completely miss the forest on that lake! I've not given a huge amount of thought to starting techs; since the extra one means that a civ's starting pair are less important, I figured I'd work out the civ first and then look for the obvious gap. But Fishing to open up the lake commerce from t1 would have a definite payback as the best tile to work before border pop and then after the Worker completes before the Pigs are online. And having the Worker able to go to the Pigs first is also a boost over improving the Corn first.
As you say, the banning of Vikings and CKN collateral suggests that water will be in some way important, and unless all of the fog is a lie, the second city could well be coastal ... although from a speculation POV, I wonder if having a founded capital is to stop us moving it coastal (1NW) and getting boated early by ridiculous "sea monster" barbs?
Hunting will also be important early for the Ivory (esp. if not going CHA for the extra Happy), and that is a great hammer tile that could let us delay Mining/BW. Except we still have to go for BW to get Slavery ... I do wish there was somewhere that Slavery could be moved to separate it from chopping.
If we're looking for a Fishing/Hunting/Agriculture start that would give us: America, Dutch, Greece, Native America, Persia, Viking, or Zulu. With exception of Dutch, all of those have an early UU which would help survivability. Greece & Native American UBs favour CHA, Zulu leans AGG, while Persia's revamped UB is now a Market that is accelerated by PRO. PRO Persia is definitely tempting.
So I think I'm leaning towards PRO over CHA, with AGG a distant 3rd. For second trait I'm still fairly open. ORG is still a general favourite for both passive bonus and cheap buildings. I've already stated a desire to try out Anarchy-free SPI, and even without starting with Myst it should be possible to pick up a religion in a 5-player game. Other possibilities: FIN (not sure this is a super start for it), EXP (still makes me cry without the Worker boost).
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(June 3rd, 2024, 13:01)Dreylin Wrote: Hunting will also be important early for the Ivory (esp. if not going CHA for the extra Happy), and that is a great hammer tile that could let us delay Mining/BW. Except we still have to go for BW to get Slavery ... I do wish there was somewhere that Slavery could be moved to separate it from chopping.
My non-close-to-home suggestion for slavery is to move it to Priesthood.
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(June 3rd, 2024, 13:47)Tarkeel Wrote: (June 3rd, 2024, 13:01)Dreylin Wrote: Hunting will also be important early for the Ivory (esp. if not going CHA for the extra Happy), and that is a great hammer tile that could let us delay Mining/BW. Except we still have to go for BW to get Slavery ... I do wish there was somewhere that Slavery could be moved to separate it from chopping.
My non-close-to-home suggestion for slavery is to move it to Priesthood.
I feel that we've had this conversation before and still agree with it. 
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I kinda like the idea of CHA/PRO Native America with fishing + agri + hunting. CHA synergy with totem pole and best choice of techs for a fast start. Maybe religion is not even needed for a long time with CHA + ivory? And unless CtH changed dog soldiers, axeman UU without needing to connect copper might be useful against raging barbs? PRO Persia looks good too as an option, no complains there. If you want to use SPI to max effect, then is the best option to go for fishing + mysticism + agriculture and hope to nail early religion with either meditation or polytheism?
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CHA/PRO Native America is definitely a commitment to militarism! I wonder if it's too much of a commitment and there's not enough else to the combo? On a typical RB map I'd say that we'd be guaranteed defendable copper, but here, yeah it might help. non-obsoleting CHA Totem pole, Ivory & PRO Market should keep us happy, and with the Pole at Archery, we can even skip Mysticism. I kinda like it too.
But what about Fishing, Myst & Agri civs, well we have: America, Dutch, Inca & Spain. Didn't really discuss the Dutch for the last combo since it's a bit uninspired and late-game, but Viking & China bans suggest that maybe this is the map that would make it worthwhile? With only 5 players I'd still worry about the game being decided before it became relevant though.
Inca has no Trait synergies, but the early UU and the reworked UB are still solid - the Terrace losing the Culture bonus also removes the anti-synergy with the religion play. And then there's Spain which Pindicator is playing in PB76 with PRO/SPI, though a different game setup to be sure. Good synergy with the Citadel, but again no certainty of getting as far as the UU. I think Inca would be the best of these lot, but I can't say I'm excited by it.
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What about a Fishing, Myst and Hunting civ? We could improve the Ivory first, or put out a Warrior before the Worker? Probably not optimal, but does it open a more exciting Civ?
Aztec, Celts, Holy Rome (skipping Greece & Native America that we have already talked about a bit). Celts' culture-generating Walls seem unexiciting for a religion-chase, and Holy Rome doesn't wow. Aztec at least has a resourceless UU and discounted Courthouse, but still now worth the deviation.
So we have:
CHA/PRO Native America + Agriculture, for a max fast-start, max fighty combo.
SPI/PRO Inca + Fishing, for an early religion (and then maybe into Oracle for the Prophet and to accelerate acces to useful civics?)
???/PRO Persia as a backup?
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