[PB79] MirOh No, what am I doing?

[Miro]

I'm Miro. I have played Civ4 since release and, embarrassingly, I'm the author of one of the top Civ4-related comments on Reddit (NSFW). So as long as Catherine the Great doesn't make an appearance this game, our empire is safe!

I haven't used the CtH mod before, but glanced at the notes and I'm excited to try it out.

My main concern is how aggression plays out in these multiplayer games. Do I need to worry about players relentlessly poking to steal workers and pillage upgraded tiles, or should I expect things to stay relatively peaceful through Ancient and early Classical eras?

My opponents in this game are:
giraflorens, ricketyclik, xist10, coldrain

I know what you're thinking. They're all too cool for capitalization. They think capitalization goes hand-in-hand with capitulation. Well if I'm going down, I'm burning all my cottages with me! (jk. ...unless?)

I don't know anything about them and I like going into this blind about my opponents. I glanced at PB72's threads (excluding xist10's) to see what to expect in these games.

This (post-game?) comment from greenline to BING_XI_LAO was chilling:

I didn't realize you had spent over 10000 gold on unit upgrades. That explains how you were able to get such a doomstack in such a short amount of time.

But from a strategic point of view it was very frustrating to play against. You were playing the game against me like a duel. A duel you would have won due to tactical outplays and better unit composition, but from my point of view it was obvious that you were giving Aetryn free reign to get several key techs ahead, finish industrializing, grab Xist's land, and dominate the game. My lead on Aetryn before your buildup was slim at best, and he was going to be the player I would most likely attack.

Needless to say, I'm glad I'm not playing against the wildcard BING_XI_LAO. I'd have to capitulate to all that capitalization.

My goals for this game are:

• Don't tunnel vision on my own play, pay attention to rival goals.
  
• Get into diplomacy. Alliances and embargos can be significant and complex in multiplayer.
  
• Maintain write-ups so it's fun to look back through this thread and so you guys can help advise.
  

[Tarkeel]

Welcome! It's great to see a fresh face in here.

My goals for this game are:

• Don't tunnel vision on my own play, pay attention to rival goals.
  
• Get into diplomacy. Alliances and embargos can be significant and complex in multiplayer.
  
• Maintain write-ups so it's fun to look back through this thread and so you guys can help advise.
  

I think these are very good goals (and just having goals is in itself a good goal). As for reporting, I have two pieces of advice: Write the report that you would like to read, and mark every report with the current date and/or turn number. Diplomace in this game is limited to what you can convey on the trade screen, which isn't very much and is likely to be hilariously misinterpreted.

[Mjmd]

Welcome Miro. 

I like CtH; let me know if you have questions.

Every game and every situation is different. I have been warrior rushed, but I've also been left alone. Especially with barbs on I recommend keeping starting scout close. Everyone likes to be excited about the map, but keeping barbs down and lookout for enemy shenanigan's is more important. 

Pillaging your own cottages has multiple viewpoints. Some people think its unsportmanlike and others see it as your obligation. Better to just not be conquered don't you think   .

Here is what I know of opponents:
- Gira - actually played in my first greens game. He then played a couple more but after a couple of disappointing performances he stopped playing. I'm excited to have him back as he is one of my target demographics for these games. 
- Ricketyclik - Only played 1 game and as I'm still playing it all I know is what I saw, but it wasn't pretty. PB75 spoilers:

Seafood not hooked, forests not chopped, and lack of whipping. On the bright side he roaded his territory (too much but still) which is more than some greens.

- Xist10 - More experienced than the above, but hes never had a notable finish as far as I'm aware. Mainly plays on German forum. Last greens game PB72 here he settled some cities in questionable order / without worker support. He did prove to be a solid fighter.
- Coldrain - I know nothing other than he has subbed a bit.

Something you'll quickly identify is people see games from their own perspective. To Greenline Bing's actions didn't make sense, but in reality they did. Greenline was pulling ahead. Bing had 1 good avenue of expansion and only 1 chance for that expansion. To hit Greenline in a moment of greed (in my opinion) with everything he could scrape together. His mistake was either A) not keeping going when he had the chance or B) not razing cities if he wasn't going to keep going.  In general that game has some great lessons on when to keep and when to raze cities in multiplayer. 

Just some comments on goals
- I would mostly focus on your own play. Its good to be aware, but don't overthink it either. 
- Just quick note this isn't full diplo, just AI diplo. Doesn't mean you can't establish friendly relationships and embargoes though. With only 5 people getting everyone to cancel open borders with the leader is often much easier.
- More questions you ask the more you will get out of your ded lurkers / general lurkers. However, if you report every scouting turn I may have to leave 

[civac2]

Unlike vs the AI, it is very difficult to profit from attacking a human player. In an FFA setting, wars need to be profitable, not just winnable. As an example, axe or axe/catapult wars don't have a good track record in regards of winning the game even if the wars themselves are successful. Consequently, Pitboss MP is somewhat peaceful in the early game. A good way to play is to build up for a timing attack against a neighbour with a significant advantage. There are viable rushes with chariots and certain unique units. You definitely need to watch out for those. As for sniping worker, skilled players tend to shy away from that kind of thing as a worker is not worth angering someone over. It's a bad idea to rely on that though especially vs newer players. They tend to be more aggressive on average.

[ljubljana]

neutral genlurker comment: that was an iconic intro - if all your reporting is up to that level of quality, i'll be a fan

edit: and having stalked your reddit comment history a bit, i feel that i must demand that you play in a yugioh progression series ripoff with me

[Gavagai]

Hello, Miro, welcome to the community! I was assigned to be a dedlurker for you but right now I am fighting a war against the whole world in PB74 which takes up all my time. So you will mostly have to rely on mjmd in the early stages of the game but he is good. After my war in PB74 is over, one way or another, I'll be able to provide more input.
I wanted to chime in about early aggression. Early aggression can be subdivided into two categories: rushing and raiding. These are two poles on a spectrum, there can be wars which are half-raids, half-rushes. In that case what I will say below will apply to the respective degree.
Raiding is worker steals, pillaging, burning newfound cities. The activity aimed at slowing down your opponent but not at killing them off entirely. Raiding in the early stages of the game is not recommended in games with more than two players and typically skilled players do not bother with such nonsense (all bets are off with unskilled players though). The reason being that even though you (hopefully) harming your opponent more than yourself, you still need to invest into raiding activities, like building units that you would not build otherwise. It means you worsen your position relative to third parties who are not engaged in any of that. Also, if your opponent is crippled, but alive, congratulations, he will likely be your enemy until the end of the game, and even a weak enemy can be dangerous if you are distracted by something else. If you are going to piss someone off, you'd better kill him outright.
That brings us to the second type of aggression: rushing. Rushing is when you attack your opponent with the purpose to eliminate him. Now, in a symmetrical position and between two opponents of equal skill a rush should never succeed: defending in civ is other things equal easier than attacking. But other things are rarely equal and rushing is very common even at the highest level. Typically people rush with Horse Archers and it happens between T70-100. However, there are examples of successful axe rushes and chariot rushes. This can happen earlier, though this is highly unusual and not recommended under the normal circumstances.
Even a successful rush bears risks because by eliminating one of the players you improve the position of all his neighbors, not just your own - the difference being that you had to pay for that while they would get this advantage for free. So, as it has been already pointed out here, it is not unusual for a civ to implode after a successful rush. That being said, if everything goes well, the reward can be very high. So, I cannot say that rushing is not recommended, it is just a very complex decision that really requires to consider long-term ramifications of upsetting the overall balance of the game. In smaller games, like that one, rushes can be especially powerful because eliminating one opponent out of four carries way more impact than eliminating one out of nineteen.

[Mjmd]

I broadly agree with Gav. There are some examples of early rushes working long term and a lot more where they don't. No matter when you attack make sure you go hard is good advice. Too many people underestimate how hard attacking is.

What are your thoughts on traits / civs you want to try? I SWEAR I don't try to overly influence players I'm ded lurking. Its pure coincidence they end up playing combinations that are similar to my own. But in all seriousness it is why I'm asking you first ideas on what you want to play before inserting my own bias. Obviously a lot will depend on start, but still curious.

[Tarkeel]

As someone who has carried out successful rushes with both axes (PB62) and chariots (PB74), I wholeheartedly agree with what Gav says. I'd say that early rushes mainly come from a position of weakness rather than strength; ie it's something you feel forced to do in order to secure your survival and not a voluntary plan to gain from it.

[Miro]

Thanks, all!

Pillaging your own cottages has multiple viewpoints. Some people think its unsportmanlike and others see it as your obligation. Better to just not be conquered don't you think   .

- Just quick note this isn't full diplo, just AI diplo. Doesn't mean you can't establish friendly relationships and embargoes though. With only 5 people getting everyone to cancel open borders with the leader is often much easier.

No worries - I'm just having fun being dramatic, I have every intention of being a good sport, win or lose.
That's interesting about Greenline vs Bing!

Protective and Aggressive are both more interesting than before, so I'm interested in trying either of them out (no Tokugawa).
I'm a little confused about Philosophical's buff compared to Financial's nerf and Industrial's (indirect) nerfs. I always thought that the three were top-tier. I suppose Philosphical falls off in the late game.
Babylon's UB seems really nice, so I'm really interested to try them out.

Questions:

1. Do we get to see the starting locations before picking civs?
   
2. Mjmd & Tarkeel mentioned limited diplomacy, does this mean I can't PM a neighbor about global plans or about conflicts between our nations? E.g. If they would culture flip an important tile I want to keep, can I offer them money to not build additional +Culture buildings in that city? They can take the money and ignore the request, upsetting me, but is that kind of diplomacy through PMs an option? And can I offer them a Cow to rename their city from "Vegan New York" to "New York"? (No hate on vegans)
   

@ljubljana Thanks! Idk anything about Links or Pendulums, but I'm having a lot of fun with the old school cards!

@Gav I see, so I'm used to the 1v1 raids then. Your description makes sense, goes along with civac2 emphasizing wars need to be profitable. I don't want to metagame much, but I imagine the map for greens isn't going to box any of us in where we'd be forced to an early war. Hope my neighbors aren't looking to raid/rush, but I'll watch out.
Gl in your world conquest!

[Mjmd]

In general you want to pick one expansion trait and one economic trait. Aggressive is economical eventually, but not on a descent time scale, so in my mind is mainly for tight maps, which I don't expect this to be. Protective is fine now. Its not as good as org or fin for economics but as a mixed trait it pulls enough weight. With 5 people and if you try to get Good Lighthouse its acceptable. Philosophic isn't embarrassing anymore (I don't think many people counted it top 3, but maybe only because fin was super OP originally), but it still does take work to work. Most people view the reduction to wonder resource build % bonus as an indirect buff to industrial not nerf as it makes industrial better at building wonders in comparison to just anyone doing. Note Ind/Phil was added as a leader, but I would only play if you are looking for something "challenging & fun".

1. Yes.
2. No PMs except basically "we are in a turn split" (usually due to war, but can also occur for settler races). Any other diplo you have to try to communicate with the in game diplo resource screen. Fish for fish (or similar) is generally accepted as 10 turns of peace. Copper for copper (or similar) is generally accepted as I'll help you in war. Past that you get the fun of most likely miss communicating!