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What Does RealmsBeyond Think about BtS?

I've been away from RealmsBeyond and Civ4 for awhile, playing other games (*cough* Linley's Dungeon Crawl *cough*) and working on other things. Last time I was around, RealmsBeyond was just starting to experiment with Warlords, and now I discover all the scenarios are on BtS. I'm guessing this means that BtS had a positive reception here? How does it play? Were the changes well-thought out or did they have problematic side-effects like the later expansions in Civ3?

Are there things I ought to know/look up/read when coming back to Civ4? In vanilla there was the Civil Service Slingshot, but here I'm not so sure.
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There's a lot of good discussion in this thread, or anyone can feel to respond directly. I'll refer you to my thoughts in the original impressions thread. smile

http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2329
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Iainuki Wrote:Were the changes well-thought out or did they have problematic side-effects like the later expansions in Civ3?

Some of both. The major additions are corporations, colonies, and espionage. All are a net positive IMO though not unflawed.

Corps definitely fulfill their goal of adding interest to the late game. They are effective, but at the cost of bullying other game mechanics off the playground. For a culture win, corp culture swamps traditional means of culture production. And in turn, the relative ease of the culture win marginalizes the lengthy space race victory. Also, corp food production overwhelms traditional means of food production. (Once Cereal Mills or Sid's Sushi are founded, you can pave over every farm and still have size-25 cities.) And corp HQ money renders religious shrines irrelevant.

Colonies are mostly just a means of approaching domination without the economic crash. (And a means for an AI to sabotage itself by lopping off half its empire.)

Espionage allows the player greater flexibility in acquiring information about rival civs. The active missions are rarely worth the effort and mostly useless, though the AI loves to annoy the human with them. Overall, espionage is essentially a win-more subsystem; whoever's bigger in other departments tends to also win the Espionage Point competitions. And it introduces a real gamey subsystem of tech stealing, the "spy economy".

Minor additions include a slew of modern units and promotions that I've never yet used. Also the usual incremental changes like extra wonders and leaders and civs, which aren't critical at all to the game, but once you start using them, going to an older version feels backward. Nothing nearly as game-breaking as C3C's Statue of Zeus, though.


Quote:Are there things I ought to know/look up/read when coming back to Civ4? In vanilla there was the Civil Service Slingshot, but here I'm not so sure.

It exists but is more difficult, since CS now requires Mathematics. It's very difficult to research both Math and Code of Laws before somebody else builds the Oracle. The standard way to attempt it is to run scientists for a Great Scientist to lightbulb Math, while researching CoL. Burning the first cheap Great Person on Math does carry considerable opportunity cost, as compared to an Academy or lightbulbing something bigger like Philosophy.

The Great Prophet version of the slingshot is gone; a GP will now always lightbulb along the line of Masonry - Monotheism - Theology - Divine Right rather than Civil Service.
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Iainuki Wrote:Are there things I ought to know/look up/read when coming back to Civ4? In vanilla there was the Civil Service Slingshot, but here I'm not so sure.
T-Hawk outlines the CS slingshot, but i don't care for it. Building the oracle so early can really affect expansion, you need a strong payoff to make it worth it. The scientist + the lost early production make it too much for me to stomach.

The next best thing is a slingshot to feudalsim like this....

worker techs you need->meditation->priesthood->monarchy->writing (while you build oracle) and take Feudalism.

In a normal game by the time i get feud Serfdom is useless b/c i have alreay built all the worker i will need for a long time, but snagging it early is VERY helpful. It is VERY strong with spiritual civs, but generally pretty strong with any civ now that you can use a golden age to take a penalty free civic switch.
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There is also the possibility to 'Oracle' Theology (you need writing + most of the early religion tech) to build the AP, and go the religious way, which could lead to very early victory. You just need : (1) all AI are easily reachable (and open border at least temporary), (2) no one is in Theocracy with the wrong religion (before you send a missionary), and (3) you are the only valid candidat and you manage to convince at least 1 to vote for you (friendly will do it for sure but it could work with pleased at +8 relation including hidden factor?).
This is easily done by building the AP for a religion that is strictly yours initially (so no one will adopt it and be eligible), usually switching religion just before finishing the AP (to avoid too many years of religion tensions) and switch back latter to 'popular religion to build up frienship with AIs. then send a missionary to a small city for each AI and a few more to the AIs that are friendly.
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