We have it so good these days...

[T-hawk]

Anyone remember when Civilization series games looked like this?

[Sullla]

Technically, no, since I didn't play Alpha Centauri. But I do remember some pretty horrendous ICS (infinite city sprawl) in all of the other Civ games prior to #4. How about this:



One of the many good things we did in Civ4 was kill this style of play dead.

[MyOtherCar]

True enough Sullla, I played Civ 1 and 3 and CIv IV is infinitely better. But , ICS isn't quite dead yet:


Just take a look at the minimap

[T-hawk]

Nice, MyOtherCar. Was that map specifically customized to facilitate that city grid? No peaks or lakes in the way anywhere, and a perfect mesh with that shoreline?

Anyway, my Morgan Industries shot above is from last week. The Tree Huggers epic last year got me thinking about Alpha Centauri again, and I made the delightful mistake of playing a game of it. (Mistake because now SMAC is jeopardizing my Epic 24 game.)

SMAC, and particularly Morgan, is hilarious in encouraging ICS to the extreme. Think about it...

The early game caps all squares to 2 per type of production, except for base squares. Answer: build more bases.

Unit support costs minerals (hammers) per unit, after a certain number of free units per base. Answer: build more bases.

Police units are limited to a certain number per base. To get more police capacity, build more bases.

Satellites provide resources for every base. Answer: build more bases.

Growth costs 50% more for each city size over 1. Answer: keep bases at size 1 building settlers.

Turns are "bigger". A SMAC game usually lasts about 180 turns, compared to 400+ in Civ. A settler turn spent walking is a bigger loss. Answer: build bases faster, which means closer.

More bases mean extra unhappy citizens, but that quickly just hits the limit when every citizen is unhappy. Answer: no reason not to build more bases.

Eco-damage kicks in very early, at 16 production per city. Answer: build more bases making 15 minerals.

Morgan's economic ability generates up to 2 extra energy (commerce) per base square than the other factions. Answer: build more bases.

Morgan's bases are limited to size 4 before habitation improvements (aqueducts). Answer: build more bases.

Hey Blake, are you around? Do you remember a couple threads on Apolyton years ago? I was arguing that Morgan is best in Green/Wealth since he gets the magic +2 economy that way, and Green efficiency helps more than a few pennies of economy per base. You argued that Morgan should be in Free Market anyway, for an extra +4 energy per base over just Wealth. You were right.

[Olodune]

Satellites provide resources for every base. Answer: build more bases.

This is what will make ICS explode .... I do seem to remember that the maximum number of satellite based resources is capped at city size (half that without an aerospace complex), however.

The sad thing about SMAC is that the AI is very weak -- even the former action set seems limited (how many AI boreholes do you see in a particular game?)

For me ICS looses some of its power due to how easily civilizations can reach +6 Growth (Population boom!!). I think you just need planned+democracy+children's creche and your cities will quickly be using many of their tiles.

Are you playing without the expansion? (I see colors only from the default factions).

[Olodune]

Turns are "bigger". A SMAC game usually lasts about 180 turns, compared to 400+ in Civ. A settler turn spent walking is a bigger loss. Answer: build bases faster, which means closer.

Try building "Copter Colony Pods" in mid-game

[T-hawk]

This is what will make ICS explode .... I do seem to remember that the maximum number of satellite based resources is capped at city size (half that without an aerospace complex), however.

Right, the other way round. First the halving, then the cap. If you have 10 sats, a size 5 city without aerospace can get +5. Nutrient sats don't do all that much for ICS though, unless you spend a lot of time building hab complexes. And mineral sats come too late to be worthwhile. But energy sats, that's where it's at.

The sad thing about SMAC is that the AI is very weak -- even the former action set seems limited (how many AI boreholes do you see in a particular game?)

Yeah, I knew it was weaker than Civ 4 and even 3, but I was still surprised to rediscover just how much so. Among other problems, it loves to choke itself on support costs. It'll happily produce 10 minerals and burning 9 of them on unit support.

For me ICS looses some of its power due to how easily civilizations can reach +6 Growth (Population boom!!). I think you just need planned+democracy+children's creche and your cities will quickly be using many of their tiles.

That's where specialists come in. My Morgan game above is running 5-6 specialists per base, with two crawlers on nutrients and just one worker on a borehole. Specialists are great, 5-6 units of economy per citizen without any terraforming or land needed.

Are you playing without the expansion? (I see colors only from the default factions).

Yeah. I never liked the expansion. The aliens just completely break the immersiveness of the speculative future. And all the human factions are just versions 2.0 of an original faction. Except the Pirates, who are fun for a change, but woefully underpowered.

Try building "Copter Colony Pods" in mid-game

For a puny 10 range? Drop Colony Pods with orbital insertion

[MyOtherCar]

Nice, MyOtherCar. Was that map specifically customized to facilitate that city grid? No peaks or lakes in the way anywhere, and a perfect mesh with that shoreline?

No, i don't believe so. At least not in this game. There are peaks and lakes and if a peak is on a city spot, that city is skipped. The same team played a couple of other ICS games as well. At least one of them was on a specifically designed map.

[Ruff_Hi]

No, i don't believe so. At least not in this game. There are peaks and lakes and if a peak is on a city spot, that city is skipped. The same team played a couple of other ICS games as well. At least one of them was on a specifically designed map.

The modded the maze map to get land tiles 4 wide and sea tiles 2 wide. Start at a corner and that map is perfect for ICS. They were playing against deity AIs and aiming to tech to draft / rifles then take over the world. IIRC - they didn't make it.

[darrelljs]

Hey Blake, are you around?

He's gone. Despite the April 1st post date, I think he was actually serious. His last post at Apolyton was April 18th.

Darrell