RB Pitboss #2 [SPOILERS] - Peter of Byzantium

[regoarrarr]

Ahoy mateys. This is the spoiler thread for Peter of Byzantium

captained by regoarrarr, sunrise089 and darrelljs, not necessarily in that order

If you are one of the other players, this is not the place to be.

And since I see that Kodii and those other scoundrels already have 18 posts, more information will follow in subsequent posts.

[regoarrarr]

And when I say more information will follow in subsequent posts, I mean it will follow slowwwwwwwwwwly due to the 120 second wait time between posts.

And the fact that I am trying to do this while also putting 4 kids down to bed.

So yes, we are Peter

of Byzantium

Peter is Philosophical and Expansive
* Great People birth rate increased 100 percent.
* Double production speed of University.
* +2 health per city.
* Double production speed of Granary and Harbor.
* 25% faster production of Workers.

Byzantium has
* The Catapharact - a Knight replacement which has +2 strength (12 instead of 10) but is not immune to first strikes
* The Hippodrome - a Theater replacement which has +1 happy, +1 happy from horse (I believe instead of +1 with dye) and +1 per 5% of culture (instead of the Theaters +1 per 10%)

And although I continue to be misinformed about this, the starting techs go with the Civ, so we start with
* The Wheel
* Mysticism

We're the only civ that starts with that combo.

[regoarrarr]

Okay - so now we start talking about some of our initial thoughts on strategy.

Email from me to sunrise talking about early polls

My thoughts:
poll 3: 18>24>36>12 - remember that an 18 hour timer is close to 24 hours in real time.
poll 4: unrestricted > restricted - do we want to consider "banning" some options at all?
poll 5: no duplicates > whatever
poll 6: normal > quick > epic > marathon
poll 7: no tech trading - strong preference > no restriction > no brokering.


when I talk about banning options - some options (like joao of the incans) seem to be pretty overpowered so I don't know if we should ban them or just count on people not letting them happen. i have a few thoughts on leader / civ choice but figure I'll let it wait till we know more about what kind of game we will have

Sunrise's reply

Poll 3 - Agree. I think we can manage 12 hours, but the 1 player teams probably cannot. 24 hours will almost certainly win.

Poll 4 - Not sure. I'd prefer restricted to any outright bans. Perhaps restricted with duplicates would keep things balanced...However Agg Rome could have been as powerpowered as Krill's start on a cramped map. Overall I vote unrestricted.

Poll 5 - No dupes.

Poll 6 - Quick -> Normal -> Epic -> Marathon. Normal will win I think.

Poll 7 - Agree, no trading.

If the game is no tech trading, I don't know if that means more war or less. If more, I still like Spiritual. However since no trading is likely, I think Lizzy could be very strong. For civs I think Krill showed how well Inca can be leveraged with its free trait, and of course India is always great. I'm sure darrell will have thoughts too. I gave him our AIM and gchat contact info but haven't heard back yet.

[regoarrarr]

So Sunrise and I had a few chats before darrell got onboard but I think those are on my other computer, so you'll have to wait to get those. But in the meantime, here was a long thread where we started talking about our leader options.

Having drawn the 10th (last) slot, that gives us a disadvantage in that we're last, of course, but also the option that we are the only civ that can definitively pick our leader / civ combo.

I started off making the case for Industrious, before we knew we were 10th.

So for darrell - here was my thinking about Industrious. RBP1 had none of the metals (gold / gems / silver) in the game. I think that worked okay but I think that it is unlikely to be done again for this map. But it is true that these can unbalance a start. So my thought was that there will be all 3 of those metals within easy access of each teams' starts. I also think that they will remove all ivory from the map. As far as stone / marble, I think that it too will either be completely removed or at each team's start.

So the 2 things that come from that - Ind could be good (especially if as Sunrise pointed out, we can hold that pick till last and be the only Ind civ). And if the metal assumption is true, then Ind's cheap forges mean 3 double happies.

Doesn't the fact that it is no tech trading mean that a SE is less powerful since you can't trade the bulbing? Or does it make it more powerful?

I think an Exp trait is going to be really big here. As far as warmongering goes, I think we don't want to do an early rush, since we're already (along with speaker / sulla) going to have a bit of a target on our backs. Similarly I think it is unlikely with "General Sunrise"'s reputation, that we will get early rushed.

Obviously we have to see where we land in the snake, but my thought would be to try and pick a civ first, and then a leader. There are less "great" civs than "great" leaders, IMO.

Sunrise weighs in

know Regoarrarr has made a good case to me re: and Industrious leader. Below are my own thoughts, merely to show my state of mind.
________________

Warmongering:

Shaka Agg/Exp
Kublai Khan Agg/Cre
Boudica Agg/Chm
Washington Exp/Chm (chariot or HA rush only)

Rome
Zulu
Egypt
Persia
Lots of other good civs, but mainly for choking, and without AW I don't think we want to telegraph our intentions.

Early Expansion a la Krill:

Joao Exp/Imp
Sury Cre/Exp
Cathy Cre/Imp

Inca
India
Mali?

Strong Long-term

Lizzy Fin/Phi
Mansa Fin/Spi
Ghandi Phi/Spi

India
Khmer?
Byzantium?
___________

My thought aside, Darrell mentioned Pericles (Cre/Phi) of Byzantium as one possible compromise solution. Run a SE and get to Guilds quickly, and then use Cataphracts to crush someone. Cre/Phi are obviously good economic traits, and Byzantium gives us two chances for warring, courtesy of Cataphracts or drafted units via their amazing UB.

Darrell finally gets around to checking his gmail

I'm embarassed to say I missed these mails! I am not in the habit of checking gmail, something I need to rectify obviously.

No tech trading kidn of slipped my mind; that and the fact I think Krill might plop down a lot of rivers makes me Fin more attractive than normal to me, and Phi, less attractive. Even with that, I'd like to play a Phi/Byz combo and go for early Cataphracts. I have a slight preference for Peter (or Lincoln) since half cost libraries are less valuable if we are taking the difficult path of bulbing down the Guilds/Banking line.

After Byz, my second choice would be Rome, and here I prefer Hannibal or Ragnar.

Third choice is Joao of the HRE, but sunrise has me questioning the value of the UB.

me

Okay - some thoughts on this as we are on deck. I was thinking about Sury (Exp/Cre), possibly of Byzantium and just expand. I do think Peter / SE is attractive though.

I want to re-thinka bout Bismark though, since there have been no Ind leaders, and if we don't take them, we've got a serious shot at looking at Ind/Exp Incas, where they're the only Ind civ!

Do we want to try and block Joao or Sury or Bis of the Incas? Plus we could always be Biz of the Byz :-)

Darrell - how do you see the bulb path going?

Darrell

Ideally we get GM/GE/GM. That would let us bulb Metal Casting, Machinery, then Guilds. That would mean going Currency, whipping a Market, running Merchants, bulbing Metal Casting, whipping a Forge, running an Engineer, then timing a second city to get a GP right after the GE is born to part bulb Guilds. TBH, I worked this out in about 5 minutes, so there might be some other things to do with it. I planned on doing a detailed tech path if

With LiPing picking Rome, I think we should go Byzantium. If we go Bismark and do a Farseer slingshot (Oracle -> Metal Casting) we only need a GE and a GM. That could work.

Darrell again

Actually Feudalism is not bulbable without excessive luck. I suppose we could use a GM for Metal Casting, whip a Forge, then use the resultant GE for Machinery while doing an Oracle sling for Feudalism. Then slow research Guilds. That seems difficult since what do you research while waiting for your second GP at a meager 3 GPP/turn? So, The Oracle for Metal Casting, a single GE for Machinery, while waiting for that GE slow research towards Feudalism. Then slow research Guilds.

I think Huyana Capac might be the best for this path.

[regoarrarr]

So we tossed a few emails around this afternoon, pasted above, but then finally were able to get all in a chat room and hash things out.

Enjoy as we talk back and forth and also pat ourselves on the back about how awesome we are.

darrelljs: ok
sunrise089: there he is
darrelljs: If I drop again Im not going to subject you guys to this anymore
sunrise089: heh
darrelljs: Have we picked a winner yet?
sunrise089: no
we can't even agree on one trait
darrelljs: Oh. I hope we haven't picked a loser
sunrise089: but I think we're all agreed on Byzantium
darrelljs: Are we settled on Byzantium?
Yay
sunrise089: if we pass on Byz I think we should do Sury of India
darrelljs: We could pick Byzantium in the forum and then leave it at that :D
Sury is Exp/Cre, right?
sunrise089: but I think we're all on board for the bulb plan
yes
regoarrarr and I are just surprised it is still available
darrelljs: Okay...well Feudalism is tough. But we would GM bulb Metal Casting and GE bulb Machinery
sunrise089: so for the bulb plan what trait is most important?
I assume Phi, but does Ind make up for it with better access to metal casting?
darrelljs: If we assume Oracle is too risky to risk, then Phi
Otherwise, I'd say Ind
sunrise089: hmm
well there probably wont be uneven distribution of marbke
but does Byz start with Mysticism?
darrelljs: Tech Currency, whip a Market, get a fast GM, bulb Metal Casting, whip a Forge, slow build a GE, bulb Machinery. In parallel slow tech Feudalism.
sunrise089: if not, there is a slight danger of loosing oracle to a civ with mining+myst
darrelljs: Priesthood is on the way to Feudalism, which is nice. I'd even have a thought of slinging Feudalism.
sunrise089: but barring that I would think we can get oracle if we beeline
if we're the only Ind
Inca may take Ind, though I dont see them giving up Exp...Rome could take Stalin though
or Mali...forgot that weird pick
Pro/Ind, whoever that is
darrelljs: I bet Rome takes Hannibal or Ragnar and Inca takes someone EXP. Could be Bismarck.
sunrise089: well we're making progress
darrelljs: Heh-heh...yeah, until Dan gets back and says we're crazy
Would you rather have Bismarck or Huyana Capac
Assuming Ind?
sunrise089: too much still out there - Phi/Exp, Phi/Cre, Phi/Imp, Fin/Imp, Fin/Ind, Exp/Ind....I think we can at least limit it to those with Byz
regoarrarr: ok back
darrelljs: Your list completes me
I'd dump Phi/Imp and Fin/Imp myself.
sunrise089: probably bismark over huyana - I prefer the latter in SP, but I worry it's too slow paired with Byz
darrelljs: We need 5-7 cities to make this work, IMO.
sunrise089: ok, i'm fine with dumping Imp too
darrelljs: Uh, what was the map size?
sunrise089: we dont know
it was huge last time
several people requested a smaller map
darrelljs: Luckily I am upgrading my machine.
regoarrarr: there is a certain cachet with Bis of the Byz
darrelljs: Bis of the Byz. Let's do that
If we lose, it won't be because of the traits, we can win with those.
sunrise089: Phi/Exp, Phi/Cre, Fin/Ind, Exp/Ind are left
darrelljs: I think we can win with all of those. I think Ind is faster if we can Oracle -> Metal Casting.
I think Phi is faster if we don't want to risk that.
regoarrarr: last game everyone went oracle
i mean nobody went oracle
it lasted awful long
sunrise089: ok, if we go Bis can we name the civ the Biysz Empire?
can we afford a 100% beeline?
unlikely someone beets us if we totally beeline priesthood, assuming marble is fair
darrelljs: Well, not 100% I mean we need Worker techs.
regoarrarr: bis starts with hunt/min
sunrise089: yeah, but can we afford to hold off on pottery, writing, and iron working?
darrelljs: Probably math too
regoarrarr: do we want to give up pyramids?
sunrise089: regoarrarr, traits go with tthe civ
so we get Myst + The Wheel
regoarrarr: you mean techs go with the civ
sunrise089: yes
sorry
regoarrarr: that's right - i remember i messed that up last game too
darrelljs: Hypothetically, if we pop a GE and the Pyramids are available?
sunrise089: hence Spain for me last time
well then we run Rep right? which makes not having Phi that much worse
regoarrarr: as much as bizness time sounds cool
i think i lean more towards peter (phi/exp)
darrelljs: I would not plop the mids without Phi.
I would probably say plop the mids with phi
regoarrarr: this could be our theme song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGOohBytKTU
Flight of the Conchords- Business Time
so just to muddy the waters
is the bulbing path the fastest way to guilds?
sunrise089: I'm sure it would be
regoarrarr: do we think fast guilds is enough to cripple / take out a neighbor?
sunrise089: depends on the alliance situatioin
regoarrarr: i know we have the backup plan of hippodrome rifle drafting
sunrise089: if we dont mind taking out the weakest neighbor, then I think it is
I mean, they have odds on elephants with stalbles up
Sent at 4:50 PM on Wednesday
darrelljs: that lasted longer than normal
sunrise089: I worry I'm thinking in circles - Phi is best for 'mids, but we only get the GE for 'mids via Ind, no?
darrelljs: Cataphracts are 2 move Grenadiers available at Guilds. They are sick
No...you can bulb Metal Casting quite easily with a GM.
All you need is Currency and a whipped Marketplace.
sunrise089: would we still try for oracle to get feud?
regoarrarr: so in order for us to bulb guilds with a merchant, we need to get / clear / block col, alpha, sailing, paper, monarchy and CS
sunrise089: and then bulb mids and then get a 2nd GE for machinery?
regoarrarr: i don't think we can bulb guilds fast with a merchant
darrelljs: No, we will be slwo researching Guilds.
sunrise089: but we can bulb all the way to it
regoarrarr: ah ok
sunrise089: and without tech trading, it's tough to counter
darrelljs: Not Feudalism, not without The Oracle.
sunrise089: remember, if they want to go pikes they also have to give up lots of good stuff
would we try Oracle w/o being Ind?
regoarrarr: so what counters catas? eles (hopefully none) and pikes?
sunrise089: nothing
regoarrarr: broker wasn't ind and got the oracle way late
darrelljs: If we were Phil Ivey lucky, we would Oracle sling Feudalsim, GM bulb Metal Casting, and GE bulb Machinery.
sunrise089: nothing has odds on them before rifles
elephants are even or so with 1 promo
darrelljs: Cataphracts eat pikes.
Evenly promoted that is
sunrise089: yeah, pikes are worse because 2nd mounted promo is anti-melee
also easier for us to get 2 promos on mounted units
regoarrarr: right - with stables
darrelljs: Even with three promos and formation I'll take combat 2 cataphracts (I think).
Of course there is a hammer cost difference.
sunrise089: right...but Catraphracts withdraw and pikes dont, so it balances somewhat
regoarrarr: so we start with myst
sunrise089: yes
regoarrarr: my thought was that we should punt the whole religious tree
darrelljs: The nice thing about Phi and Feudalsim run is they are almost independent other than the GP points from the Oracle
sunrise089: we need religious techs for feud, which is a guilds pre-req, right?
darrelljs: Guilds nees Feudalism and Machinery.
regoarrarr: yes
so i think we beeline the oracle
darrelljs: Feudalism needs Writing and Monarchy, which needs Priesthood, which needs one of the early religion techs
regoarrarr: and if we're doign that
darrelljs: Machinery needs Metal Casting, which needs Pottery and Bronze Working.
regoarrarr: we should hope for budd / poly
sunrise089: monarchy will be apain
regoarrarr: so does that mean a financial civ?
darrelljs: You can bulb it with a Great Artist if you avoid Aesthetics
sunrise089: so oracle feud if we have monarchy in time, otherwise MC, right?
darrelljs: But yes, it is a pin
pain
sunrise089: GP does what? just wastes the first GP?
darrelljs: Well....
You have pollution, and if you get a Prophet you are kind of screwed.
regoarrarr: so maybe it's best to ignore the oracle
beeline currency
sunrise089: though the shrine is great long term
can you stop the prophet? get a market soon enough to even have a chance?
regoarrarr: so, to try and wrap things up a bit - we seem to be doing a bit of paralysis analysis
(and we haven't even played a turn yet :-D )
sunrise089: it's true
regoarrarr: we're all agreed on byz, right?
darrelljs: The safest, surest path is to beeline Currency, Market -> GM -> Metal Casting, then Forge -> GE -> Machinery.
sunrise089: I'm in general sold on a Phi bulbing plan with Byz
and slow build monarchy, feud, and guilds
darrelljs: That's definitely Phi.
sunrise089: ignore oracle, and use 2nd GE if we get one on Pyrimids
regoarrarr: i can agree to phi
so that gives us
darrelljs: If we want to Oracle Metal Casting and whip out a Forge fast enough to guarantee a GE, that's valid.
sunrise089: but still maybe get a religon, right? since we need the tech anyways
regoarrarr: phi with agg, org, spi, chm, cre, exp, imp and pro
darrelljs: If we want to Oracle Feudalism we are making a gamble with lots of upside
Okay
so Phi.
That means the safe, sure route.
regoarrarr: yeah i think we need to play the safe sure
we're better than everyone else
(maybe? :-D)
darrelljs: You know, i agreed :D
sunrise089: darrelljs is the best player at least
regoarrarr: so if that is the case
then we play safe
count on our skills to win out
people that aren't as "good" need to take more risks
we can assess our chances at a religion once we see the map / competitors
darrelljs: Lincoln, Alexander, Pericles, Peter. I vote Peter.
regoarrarr: that's chm, agg, cre, exp
sunrise089: so if Phi it is, then that jmeans Peter and Expansive? darrelljs doesn't want Cre right?
darrelljs: I'm definitely the best player within 10' of my current physical location.
regoarrarr: i'm definitely the best player i've ever personally met in real life
i am way better than my son
sunrise089: I'm at best 2nd best in real life
regoarrarr: (who cough cough is 7)
darrelljs:
regoarrarr: okay i think agg is out
we don't want an early war
and we're fighting with mounted units
sunrise089: yeah, agg just doesn't do enough until Rifles
darrelljs: Cha Cataphracts are attractive, but I think it comes down to Cre and Exp.
Pick the one that will help us in the initial land grab, IMO.
sunrise089: which is Exp
regoarrarr: yeah
darrelljs: Hence my Peter vote
regoarrarr: especially since we start with myst so can build monuments without "wasting" a tech
darrelljs: Maybe my questions were a bit leading
regoarrarr: and we'll want to do some of the religious branch anyways
sunrise089: the demogame taught me that food was super-crazy important, so early graneries are key, rifght?
darrelljs: And might get lucky with a religion
yes
Exp is a great trait.
For our approach
sunrise089: ok, I am behind Peter of Byzantium
darrelljs: Can someone post on RB?
regoarrarr: i will post it up then
sunrise089: ok, go for it
darrelljs: nice!
Sent at 5:06 PM on Wednesday
regoarrarr: i will set up our spoiler thread shortly as weell
and i will post all these conversations we've had
unless anyone has a problem with it
darrelljs: no, that's great
regoarrarr: my only concern was potentially the mapmakers using that as "spoiler" info
darrelljs: I was just cut & pasting it
regoarrarr: like making sure we have no horse
or something
darrelljs: so that savfes me some pain

regoarrarr: not necessarily intenionally
or making sure the only people we can easily attack are sulllar and speaker
sunrise089: I'm assuming the map guys will be fair
regoarrarr: yes i think they will try to be
sunrise089: and i certainly appreciate having one of the better thread updaters on my side
darrelljs: I would love to have Sulla/Speaker nearby. I'd rather take them on early than later.
regoarrarr: heh
yes we will be #1 in post count for sure
anyways i gotta run
talk to you later
darrelljs: later

[regoarrarr]

So as you may have surmised from the earlier posts (or maybe have missed in all the hullabaloo) is our basic plan:

SE (specialist economy), bulbing our way to a (hopefully super-early) Guilds, where we will lay waste to the world (or at least a neighbor or two) with our mighty Catapharacts. You will not BELIEVE the nerdery I am going to unveil as I detail out this plan a bit more in the upcoming days / weeks, but here's a basic plan.

* Beeline Currency, possibly picking up a religion (we do start with Mysticism after all)
* Whip a market, hire 2 merchants (we're philosophical!)
* Use the GM to bulb Metal Casting.
* Whip a forge
* Hire an engineer. 34 turns later, bulb Machinery
* Meanwhile, we are teching our way to Feudalism and then Guilds.
* Go on the rampage with Catapharacts
* Profit?

Our secondary plan, after that, is to make our way to Nationalism by way of Drama to use our crazy-sick UB to draft rifles

[regoarrarr]

So, as I mentioned upthread, there was some serious discussion given to the cachet of being "Bis of the Byz" but in the end we went with Peter.

Still, our theme song will be

http://www.youtube.com/v/wN0oDnoc3-c&hl=en&fs=1

We will taunt all our foes as we mercilessly destroy them. :neenernee:neenernee

[sunrise089]

LiPing took Shaka of Rome. That's a pretty scary combo, although Agg/Cre is often favored by MP guys because it allows easier fast access to Iron.

[novice]

Still, our theme song will be

http://www.youtube.com/v/wN0oDnoc3-c&hl=en&fs=1

We will taunt all our foes as we mercilessly destroy them. :neenernee:neenernee

Delurked just to comment on your great theme song. Seems like a very good needle as well.

Looking forward to watching this game unfold (but hopefully not fall apart)! Best of luck.

[sunrise089]

Delurked just to comment on your great theme song. Seems like a very good needle as well.

Looking forward to watching this game unfold (but hopefully not fall apart)! Best of luck.

Side benefit of still being at work at 4:35am...totally ok to play Business Time out loud on my laptop's speakers. On the other hand, these sentences take me about minute each to type because this level of tiredness is akin to about 6 drinks.