[SPOILERS - PBEM17] regoarrarr - Bismarck of Inca

[regoarrarr]

First!

[regoarrarr]

Here was a chat Cyneheard and I had while debating which leader

regoarrarr: ok no pacal
joao, izzy, bismarck or peter
Cyneheard: Phi is tough to leverage
Izzy's always good
Biz if you want to repeat a GLH game
Joao if you want to fill out ASAP
(I've avoided looking at the map thread if it's even gone anywhere)
Washington
regoarrarr: i don't think it has
Cyneheard: is always interesting for naval combat
Run Vassalage/Theo, and have the best ships out there
regoarrarr: in pbem8 i saw that wk put a GG on a galleon
with circumnav it has 8 moves
yikes
Cyneheard: Even w/o a GG
it's still 5 + circumnav
I've been very pleased with Cyrus in PBEM10, considering the options
regoarrarr: the thing is i have 4th choice overall
Cyneheard: for leader?
regoarrarr: yes
i picked inca
it went pacal, india, inca, liz
Cyneheard: yeah, I saw
the problem with Joao is once you fill out your continent, you're done
regoarrarr: right
Cyneheard: if it was a PB4 map, then Joao would definitely be my choice
the other option is to pick someone strong, just not Exp, and deal with it...but then it was a mistake to pick Inca
regoarrarr: i could still pick sury
probably not
Cyneheard: and then you've wasted your civ pick completely
Odd comment by Kyan
seems weird to be surprised by those opening picks
regoarrarr: woah woah pacal!?!!?
india?
inca?
i think darrell's was somewhat odd
but certainly not crazy
i mean willem being on the board with top 5 is odd
Cyneheard: true
you think you'd leverage Peter well?
regoarrarr: probably not
i am torn between bismark and izzy
Cyneheard: Depends on whether or not you think you can keep GLH OBs going
regoarrarr: y
Cyneheard: I assume Willem will go to Kyan
regoarrarr: well even so i can't take him
Cyneheard: yeah, that doesn't fit Inca at all
Cre = waste and not-Exp = painful as well
regoarrarr: i would think that it will be harder than average to keep OB
Cyneheard: and IMO Biz isn't essential for an Oracle grab
although he does make MC a lot stronger
regoarrarr: willem of dutch taken
and egypt
Cyneheard: so, prophet play
wonder if he'll take a page out of my PBEM4
Oracle COL, and bulb Theo and CS
or do something different
well, go make your pick
regoarrarr: so if resources are more abunregoarrarrt
and higher overall happy and health caps
what traits does that imrpove
Cyneheard: Not Cha
hm.
Um, Phi likes high food to run lots of specs
regoarrarr: hm
Cyneheard: Imp becomes more of a waste b/c you fill out fast enough anyway
You build a city with 3 food res, knock out a Granary, Lib and a Market, and run 4 specialists at size 7...
while still growing...
regoarrarr: hmm you're talking me into peter
Cyneheard: yeah
you'll be able to support them
and it's a good way to leverage lots of small potent cities
rich resources + little land = ICS build IMO
although, hm.
Specialist economy calls for pyramids
which may be Biz instead
either one, really
Sent at 17:02 on Sunday
Cyneheard: declares himself Rego's ded lurker
regoarrarr: nice
i think i'm going for bismark
bismarck?
Cyneheard: yeah, with the c
regoarrarr: bismarck
sound good, mr. ded lurker?
Cyneheard: yeah
regoarrarr: done
Cyneheard: and you can choose whether mids (either Oracle --> MC for a GE or straight) or GLH are the way to go
depends a lot on how high-resources we are
regoarrarr: yeah
Cyneheard: And Krill's Darrell's dedlurker
regoarrarr: right
it's a battle of the original pbem5 and the copy pbem5
Cyneheard: who won your PBEM5?
regoarrarr: me
Cyneheard: good. It's 1 winner against the other
regoarrarr: and at least we have the winner in control instead of just ded lurking ;-)

[regoarrarr]

As I pointed out above, with krill dedlurking darrell we have the 4 people from the original PBEM5 (me vs. darrell) and the copy (Krill vs. cyneheard). But at least we have the winner controlling the game, while they have the winner on the back bench

[Cyneheard]

Checking in as a Dead Lurker.

You can see why Biz seems to be the consensus...there are wonder options, and frankly Phi is better for one city to run rampant with specialists, not 10.

[regoarrarr]

Plus if it came down to Peter (who we played in PB2) and Biz (PB3), the ghosts of PB2 are just ... too much

[Cyneheard]

Um, you realize that the other players are lapping us in posts?

Of course, there's only so much to talk about when there isn't even a T0 screenshot to look at, but we can do better.

Quick Civ/Leader Discussion

ShootTheMoon:
Pacal of Ottomans

FYI: StM was easy to work with as Carthage in PB3.

Ottomans are the can't-go-wrong civ pick. Frankly, they should be picked in almost every game where they're allowed because they're so generically good: No synergy with a specific leader, but also no real weakness. With some of the obvious choices gone, and very few civs that synergize directly with Fin or Exp, probably their best choice. Agri/Wheel's good. The Hammam is always helpful, although rarely game-breaking, and Janissaries are almost always useful in NTT where Muskets get at least some window of opportunity to be useful. Especially since if we have individual continents, it's a good time for the UUs.

Novice:
Sury of India

Never really interacted with him in PB3; too far away.

Probably a bit of a mistake to grab India. India's best when you have a lot of land to work; how long will it take until their land is fully improved? There's not going to be all that much, and they passed up on Willem or Lizzie on a water map to do so. Sury was their obvious choice for leader being India and with the other leaders gone.

Darrell:
Elizabeth of Egypt

And he's got Krill as a Ded Lurker. Likely Oracle competition, if we go for that. I doubt Krill will want to reprise his Grab Every Single Bloody Religion game from PB3, but that could get interesting if he does. If he wants Stonehenge (while normally a free UB in every city is nice, you don't run prophets for their tile yields: Obelisks are only superior to regular Monuments in 1-2 cities for an Egypt player). War Chariots aren't truly needed for what this map is likely to be, so it's all about the Philosophical Obelisks. Great Prophets are nice for bulbing up the Religious line, and he can get plenty of them.

Kyan:
Willem of the Dutch

Hopefully he won't be like Babylon in PB3, where he basically gave up on winning and functionally vassalized himself to Mali and/or Maya, depending on the day. Either all the work it took for him to get GLib, or his play beforehand, really messed him up there. Very amiable, and was quite honest and forthright there.

Odd that he was surprised to see Inca and India fall (I can't believe Pacal and Lizzie falling shocked him a bit). East Indiamen are rather annoying; Astro comes a lot earlier than Chemistry on water maps, and unlike, say, Portugal, they get both naval warfare and amphibious assault benefits. And Dikes are obviously amazing late-game buildings. It's a Moai Statue in every city! I really don't want to have to fight him after Steam Power. That leaves two options:
1) Fight him before he gets Steam Power.
2) Don't fight him at all.

[regoarrarr]

No synergy with a specific leader, but also no real weakness. With some of the obvious choices gone, and very few civs that synergize directly with Fin or Exp, probably their best choice.

Do I need to post the chat logs where you talked about how Ottos were a bad pick for him?

[Cyneheard]

Do I need to post the chat logs where you talked about how Ottos were a bad pick for him?

Don't forget that I convinced myself of their value by the end. Most leaders that aren't Pacal can find some nice synergy somewhere (Willem of Maya, for example), and so have better options, but Ottos should end up somewhere reasonably high on one's list. I think they had better (likely more risky) options, but it's not a true waste of a choice. It's easy to grab the Ottos rather than thinking about who actually works best for you, since the Ottos are such a generic civ.

The happy cap's nice if they want to go on a drafting spree (although it's less valuable with a high resource happy cap), and let's look at three of their strongest other options:

1) Byzantium. If the tech path goes up the bottom of the tree, as is likely, then they're a little stronger against Cannons and Grenadiers, which are both at important naval techs. Jans don't work on them. The UUs are very comparable for non-Cre civs. Myst/Wheel's worse than Agri/Wheel; starting with no food techs or Mining will likely slow you down a bit early. I'd probably prefer Byz to Ottos, but it's pretty close.

2) England: Stock Exchanges will have a (significant) economic benefit in a high-happy cap scenario. Waiting for a Redcoat war may make more sense. However, Fishing/Mining could be a lot slower (are there rules on settling on the coast?). I'd personally pass since I've played them before. Probably a little better, but it depends mostly on when you think the wars are going to happen. Fishing/Mining isn't all that bad given the likely map contours: Fishing will be needed relatively early, and Mining's always great.

3) Vikings: Fishing/Hunting isn't as bad as normal when you start on your own continent, especially if you start with a deer (which should exist), but that's potentially a big drawback. Berserkers aren't all that great, although Amphib could come in handy. The key is their free Nav I. Especially if they end up with circumnav. City Raider Berserkers off of 6-move Combat I Galleons would be really hard to stop if they also got Circumnav. The Sirian Doctrine returns. Dangerous choice b/c of the Fishing/Hunting start, but could pay off handsomely. I'd have taken the risk here, if I were them.

The other Water Civs (Carthage, Portugal) just don't bring enough to the table. If you're at tech parity, Carracks are a naval invasion threat for about...uh...10-15t, because once Astro comes around both teams are on equal footing. And Feitorias are weak. Carthage's trade routes are nice, but the UU does nothing. And Fishing/Mining isn't much better than the Vikings.

[plako]

Your start:

[regoarrarr]

Okay - a few more thoughts that I had. My basic plan is to run as much of a farmer's gambit as I think I can get away with. I plan to slave granaries, workers and settlers as fast as my little hands can go.

I start with Agriculture and Mysticism. Perfect start would be plains hill plant or plains forest hill (to get the expansive worker bonus), and a river corn (or wheat or wet rice).

First few techs will be Wheel / Pottery or Mining / BW, depending on the lay of the land. Then we've got a couple of options.

I really like the plan to Oracle into Metal Casting for quick, cheap forges. Cheap Granaries and cheap forges, probably the two best early buildings seem like a good idea to get quickly. I would expect to be able to pick up a religion on the way to the Oracle.

There's also the Hanging Gardens.

Opponents by trait and starting techs

Shoot the Moon: Exp/Fin, Ag/Wheel
Novice: Exp/Cre, Mining/Myst
Darreljs: Phi/Fin, Ag/Wheel
Kyan: Cre/Fin, Ag/Fishing

And I see our start has been posted, so more in a sec!!