BaII cleans up THH's mess [spoilers!]

[TheHumanHydra]

That looks about right for a ridiculous title. Now, this is me and Sian's spoiler thread; be warned, here there be many ravening hungry mouths.

On to the game. I'm a little reluctant to start talking about leader and civ choices since we don't know about bans or other restrictions yet, but I guess we might as well. Here, an important factor for me will be comfort level. I do not understand how best to employ all traits equally. In fact, I should probably say that despite being successful on a high difficulty level against the AI, and having read a fair number of single- and multi-player game reports specifically to learn how others do it, I play Civilization very differently from most of the expert players. For me, the game is not about whipping out units and infrastructure and then growing my cities back as fast as possible. I've always found this unintuitive and preferred to build naturally, though lately I've been trying to force myself to whip more. I also don't really specialize my cities - I much prefer every city to pull its weight in terms of beakers and hammers. I have never run a State Property economy, and while I've tried a specialist economy, mostly I prefer just to cottage-spam (that, at least, is normal). Wonders such as Stonehenge and the Pyramids are always incidental and never an essential part of my game plan. Finally, I don't like mounted units! Maybe multiplayer will change that.

The above isn't meant to suggest that I'm unwilling to change my ways, or that I think they're better, just that it would probably be best for my first multiplayer game to stick to what I know reasonably well (unfortunately, this does not include water-heavy maps!). Thus, I plan to run a cottage economy if at all possible and not to rely on getting any wonders, though with your help, Sian, I think I should probably try and whip more. This suggests immediately to me that Industrious would not be an overly useful trait for me to have, while Financial (predictably) would be the best one possible. Organized is also high on my list, for the cheaper buildings which are all very important, and the cheaper civic upkeep can't but help, especially for natural production with Organized Religion and both production and beakers with Bureaucracy. Creative would be nice to pop borders, but maybe that's too little reason to pick a trait. I might also want a military trait: I'm worried militarily because I'm untested against human opponents and because I have a terrible tendency to skimp out on defence. The first thought in terms of leader that came into my mind was actually Ragnar (Agg/Fin). I like the versatility he offers as well as the mind games that choice might play with opponents - is he going to rush or boom? Hannibal (Cha/Fin) might be okay too, especially if I go ahead and just build the dang monuments to pop borders. Or I could go all economy and play Darius (Fin/Org) or Zara Yaqob (Cre/Org) - I don't really want to play Willem as he's too well-known as one of the top dogs.

Those are my initial thoughts on leaders; I think I'll save my thoughts on civs for now as they're not as well-developed and I really need to go do some schoolwork. Anyways, I don't really know who I'm writing to in this thread other than Sian, but I hope that was interesting. Talk to you later,

TheHumanHydra

[Sian]

Something to be aware of in MP is that you have to make very specific plans to get the wonders you want, and to get them you have to push for them ... specially when we're talking early wonders, say anything including and before Great Lighthouse.

As for Traits ... theres really two distinct kinds of Multiplayer gaming around ... Gamespy lobby and itzy bitzy tiny maps tend to lean towards taking military traits such as Charismatic or Aggessive (depending on your focus, those using mounted units obviously prefer Charismatic). While on the other hand, around here on RB the Metagame leans more towards getting a technological advantage and push for a win with overwhelming advanced units (say Knights or Cannons).

The top traits around here is Expansive and Financial, followed by; Spirituel, Philosophical (although it really need Pyramids to shine), Organized (although i'm of the known opinion that its underrated around this community), Creative (while a bit null later in the game its quite important in terms of being less restricted when it comes to debating dotmaps, since you aren't dependent on getting food in first ring and throw hammers 'away' for culture in small cities that never is going to be part of border wars) and Industrious (although only if you're sure you're the only one having that), with Imperialistic somewhere slightly behind (its a good support trait, given a proper primary, that and it need hammerheavy maps (or at least easy to get hammerheavy cities) to truely shine ...) with Charismatic only slightly above the dead weight Aggessive and *shivers* Protective, which is both pretty useless on thinsg looking like a standard map

As for a Waterheavy map specificly Expansive probably looses some of it luster (less need for workers), while Organized wins a bit (more need for Lighthouses to make Water a reasonable tile to work instead of a crap tile, and more scattered cities means that Courthouses might be more important)

Traditionally(!, 26, which was the last specificly announced waterheavy thing was an aversion, but then again ... it was plako making it ... but Commodore played in it) Watermaps tend to be light on hammers and heavy on food, which means that it so much that more hard to get, and as can be guessed theres relatively little land which again means that cottages is less usefull (NOT to say that they shouldn't be built, just not to the degree that you'd usually do)

Both Darius and Zara is obviously reasonable choices, but i personally caught a bit of flak back in 26, because the general opinion was that Creative was slightly nerfed by the lack of borderwars there ... But given that word is that you'll be on same landmass (or close enough for it), they are a both good picks ... and if not them, then someone similar to them is not a bad idea

[TheHumanHydra]

First of all, Sian, thank you for agreeing to be my wingman for this one. It is really much appreciated.

Wonders - Yeah, I know you really have to gun for them. That's why I kind of want to shy away from a wonder-dependent strategy, simply because I'm not confident I can get them.

Military traits - Okay, maybe we'll shy away from these, especially since a good portion of our units won't even be land units (so if we do pick one, let's make it Charismatic, since it affects ships too as far as I know).

Economic traits - I do really like Organized. Maybe I'll make my primary choice Darius and my secondary Zara. Or should I give in and make my secondary Willem? I'm kind of concerned about not having Financial on a map with tons of water tiles.

Water maps and tile yields - I'm kind of concerned about this too - more for the hammers than for the commerce, as less cottageable terrain will effect everyone running a conventional economy equally. I could see having to run Engineers for hammers. This makes me tempted to take the Dutch for civilization, as their UB, though late, would help immensely with this.

Civilizations - The Viking uniques would obviously be quite useful if not banned. I kind of want to go with an infantry UU, just because cavalry will be so much more limited. I personally prefer to build then rush at the start, so I'd prefer a later UU. Maybe the UB is more important, though ... what could improve our precious hammers? Shale Plant? Too late. Madrassa? Not that strong ...

Zany ideas for civilizations -
Portugal - +1 commerce on water tiles sounds like it might be really strong on this map; Carracks allow us to settle where galleys can't reach much sooner than other civs.
Aztec - The Sacrificial Altar would let us whip more frequently if that ends up being our primary means of construction on this water-heavy map. Organized would even let us build it faster! This is weird enough that I'm tempted to try it ... relying so heavily on whipping would definitely be a learning experience for me. I hate the Jaguar, though.

[Sian]

Dutch UB aren't really that hot, it really comes to late for an average game (Knights and Cuirassiers are usually game-enders since they often give the egde that make others admit defeat, on watermaps naval superiority with Astronomy/Military Service also counts)

Portugal ... well ... i don't like them, but others seem to take it into serious consideration whenever the map seems to become somewhat waterheavy so ... meh ...

Aztecs are taken for the Altars, and Jags aren't considered

Somewhat certain that both Vikings and Cathage is going to be banned, but if not they'll be good civs to go for (Vikings for naval superiority through better mobility (Zerkers come at a point where naval assualts aren't that hot, but they can be upgraded to Rifles which are hot, since you can get frigates/Ship of the line that can bombard, and Galleons that can carry more)

Arabs shouldn't really be taken unless you're aiming at getting tons of Great Persons through Specialist spam, and Japan is just outright meh.

[Commodore]

For your consideration.


Fog-gazing is of the devil and should not be trusted.

[Sian]

hmm ... evil ... either off the PH or no fish for a while (until a city is placed somewhere south of the fish)

... leaning towards settling in place is better, since it allready got enough food to go around (and 6(!) riverside grasslands to cottage)

salt water Coast to the West through (note the wave) ... at least in the current configuation ...

[Commodore]

Yeah, like I said, don't plan on the fog, revealed tiles won't change but I'm still working on the rest.

[TheHumanHydra]

Thank you very much, Commodore.

I'm leaning towards settling in place too, unless we pick an Expansive leader, or the Aztecs and go whip-crazy. I'm going to have to leave any deeper thoughts to tomorrow due to schoolwork.

[Sian]

Expansive is just more reason to settle in place, due to 2/2/1 capital, which together with working the sheep after borderpop would make building the first worker that much faster

[TheHumanHydra]

Did you want to chat sometime this afternoon (it's 12:00 for me here), Sian? I'll be out this evening.