January 20th, 2006, 22:34
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From this Gamespy interview with Soren
Quote:I didn't want that to happen for Civilization III, so I was very careful, and we didn't have people to test things to the extreme. Only when people were playing the game we knew there were some things out of balance.
That was different in Civilization IV. The civics, the unique units, the trade balance all came to be what they are through extensive testing. I remember a pre-release Civilization IV game where Aeson had got 40 or 50 great people, and I thought: âYou can't have half the tech tree from great people. I need to adjust the algorithm a bit.â I suppose another good example is that there is no industrious and philosophical civilization. There are 28 trait combinations and 26 leaders, so there are two missing. One of the two is industrious-philosophical. That used to be Rome. Friedrich and a few other people, probably Aeson, made a strong case that philosophical and industrious is just too dangerous. Multiplicative math: If you're industrious then you can build more wonders, and if you can build more wonders you get more great people, which then is multiplied by your philosophical trait. They basically had proven that the Romans were too powerful.
The other one missing is Creative and Organized.
I can see the unbalanced nature of phil +indus popping out great people too fast, but the other one sort of baffles me..
Creative is +2 culture innate per town with half priced theatres and colloseums, organized is half cost civics with half priced light houses and courthouses.
I can see how those two support a culture rush but broken enough to omit those two traits appearing in the same leader?
I'm just not seeing this clearly enough to understand fully.
Cheers!
-Liq
January 20th, 2006, 22:42
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My guess is that they are the two traits that enhance the initial land push, and one of the objectives of CivIV design was to lessen the overwhelming importance of that phase of the game.
January 20th, 2006, 23:02
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Liquidated Wrote:The other one missing is Creative and Organized.
Twenty-Six leaders, 28 combinations. Two have to be missed.
Suppose there was only one combination that is bad mojo. That still leaves the need to leave out a second combination. What if there's no great magic behind that? What if there is no obvious second choice? Then it doesn't really matter, right? Musical chairs, and somebody is left standing when the music stops. 
- Sirian
Fortune favors the bold.
January 21st, 2006, 00:13
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Yes, but...
Wasn't 26 leaders also a design decision? Couldn't you have made Augustus, Xerxes, Cleopatra, Manco Inca, Cuahtemoc, etc... who would be a creative + organized leader?
What's the magic of 26?
-Jester
January 21st, 2006, 00:45
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"...And you're ready to give it to us?" urged Loonquawl.
"I am."
"Now?"
"Now," said Deep Thought.
They both licked their dry lips.
"Though I don't think," added Deep Thought, "that you're going to like it."
...
"The Answer to the Great Question..."
"Yes!..."
"Of Life, the Universe and Everything..." said Deep Thought.
"Yes!..."
"Is..." said Deep Thought, and paused.
"Yes!..."
"Is..."
"Yes!..."
"Twenty-six," said Deep Thought, with infinite majesty and calm.
January 21st, 2006, 00:50
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That's not enough pips for a craps game
January 21st, 2006, 01:09
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That is interesting, I had never noticed the lack of cre/org. I'm curious what they're going to do with traits for the expansion....it is difficult to come up with new traits.
Also - why would they ever give the Romans the philosophical trait?? Not so much on the advancement of higher thinking, for being a huge empire.
January 21st, 2006, 02:42
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Maybe Cre + Org was just too useless, as opposed to being too powerful
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Too Much Coffee Man
January 21st, 2006, 06:37
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BeefontheBone Wrote:Maybe Cre + Org was just too useless, as opposed to being too powerful
haha
I'm personally of the mindset that organized is a feature poor trait unless you are playing at high levels of difficulty. Civic costs are just not that bad even on monarch to justify it unless you are into vass and theo.
Creative on the other hand I consider one of the most powerful traits as that kick start culture is just insane on land grabs.
Why creative and organized be singled out?
If not one of the crowd here can think of a reason for the creative + organized trait being overpowered, I'll assume for now the musical chairs theory. The combination is just not bad enough to skip on purpose.
Time will tell.
Cheers!
-Liq
January 21st, 2006, 08:17
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If you're still wondering about the Creative/Organized combo, maybe you should go back and re-read what Sirian just posted...
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