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Poll: Which variant do you prefer?
You do not have permission to vote in this poll.
Builder challenge
66.67%
6 66.67%
Conquest challenge
22.22%
2 22.22%
Prefer something else
11.11%
1 11.11%
Total 9 vote(s) 100%
* You voted for this item. [Show Results]

 
Imperium 41: What would you like?

Ref asked me if I wanted to take another go at sponsoring an Imperium, and I do have a few ideas kicking about. I'd like to hear what people are interested in, so please take a moment to vote in the poll. Here's a description of the two alternatives I have in mind, subject to change:

1) Builder challenge
Objective: Best economy after 150 years
Size: Medium
Opponents: 5
Difficulty: Average
Victory points: Planets, population, factories and tech
Restriction: No espionage, no ground invasions

2) Conquest challenge
Objective: Trash all enemy homeworlds ASAP
Size: Small
Opponents: 5
Difficulty: Impossible
Victory points: Each turn 1 point is added for each enemy capital you haven't succesfully glassed or invaded.
Restriction: No diplo


Lastly, you can also vote to see something else. Please cast your votes, and I'll get to work on putting something together when we have something that looks like a result.
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I voted for the Builder challenge but I would like to add a request for added encouragement to play a complete game. Imperium 40 was interesting playing toward an objective other than victory, but I found it a bit disappointing to just stop play after conquering Orion. Granted in my game I only played toward the Orion objective and completely ignored any victory strategy beyond that, but still. I like the Conquest scenario because by the time all opponent homeworlds were conquered the game would be basically over anyway. Hmm, maybe combine the two? Best economy, tech etc upon occupation of all enemy homeworlds?
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As I stated earlier, I think I found an ideal rule set for my personal enjoyment. I played 3 random games back to back and I rated my personal fun for 99% or higher for all three due to not knowing for a long time if I will win or lose. This is new to me after 20 years and hundreds of games played.

I can sponsor the next by simply posting one of my played games and acting as judge in case an issue comes up.

I played by the following:

Setup:
0. Play Kyrub's 1.40m
1. Random galaxy size from small, medium, large.
2. Impossible
3. 4 opponents
4. Random race
5. Scrap all ships in 2300

This is where the game is saved for you to start.

Rules:
6. No cheat. No cheat load.
7. All ship designs must have weapon, but no biological weapon.
8. Never use transport
9. Limit reserve infusion to 1 time per planet in each turn
10. Winning score = defeat guardian + final war start + game won - 6900. Lower the better. All other cases are losses.

X. Optional added challenge: No wait pushing in battle

Anything not stated is allowed.

I know that this is against Imperia rules, so feel free to mod it to your taste.
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The main problem here Whitemage is that while you are a strong enough player to compete, have fun and (have a 50% chance to) succeed in that scenario I (and based on the results of Imperium 40, most of the other potential participants) may not be. I'm worried that your scenario might drive away all but the most experienced players. Things are already quiet enough around here.

How exactly do you generate games with "random" races and galaxy sizes? Hover the mouse over galaxy size, close your eyes and click a whole bunch, repeating if you land on Huge? Close your eyes and wave the mouse around the race screen clicking until you hit an option? The ONE thing I thought was cool about MOO2 was the Random race button.
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Ianus, I could put up a version for veterans and one for greens. They wouldn't differ majorly, but maybe the greens version would get more pop and factories or something at the start.

WhiteMage, what is the reasoning behind your rules?
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(March 12th, 2014, 09:09)Ianus Wrote: The main problem here Whitemage is that while you are a strong enough player to compete, have fun and (have a 50% chance to) succeed in that scenario I (and based on the results of Imperium 40, most of the other potential participants) may not be. Things are already quiet enough around here.
Imperium 40 also only had 1 or at most 2 winnings. My scoring function can be extended that if all players only achieve 2 out of 3 objectives, then he/she gets a value of "E" for the unachieved objective. Any integer < E < infinite. In case no player achieves all 3 conditions, the winner is the one who has achieved 2. Again, the lower score, the better: E+Objective1+Objective2-6900. This is worse than any score achieving 3 conditions (Objective1+Objective2+Objective3-6900), but better than any score achieving only 1 condition (2*E+Objective1-6900). All Objectives remain equally scored for at all times.

(March 12th, 2014, 09:09)Ianus Wrote: I'm worried that your scenario might drive away all but the most experienced players.
Rather than worrying and assuming, we should ask them about this. Also, additional scale backs are possible.
If it helps, I can upload one of the maps I already won, so in that case it is known that is "winnable" and I don’t mind being declared a winner in case everyone else fails to win. Although this is not why I proposed to sponsor. I just wanted to share my fun with the community.


(March 12th, 2014, 09:09)Ianus Wrote: How exactly do you generate games with "random" races and galaxy sizes? Hover the mouse over galaxy size, close your eyes and click a whole bunch, repeating if you land on Huge? Close your eyes and wave the mouse around the race screen clicking until you hit an option? The ONE thing I thought was cool about MOO2 was the Random race button.
No, those methods are too cumbersome and biased. It is not close enough to be called random.
I wrote a Java program that I use to generate random numbers. Even without that, it is easy to simply look at the seconds on my clock and take the mod 10 for race (e.g. 20 is Darlok) and mod 3 for galaxy size and that will be it. In other games like C-Evo, I randomly choose number of opponents, AI programs, and AI levels. I ask my son to use my random number generator and create a random game and don't even tell me how many opponents and AI programs, AI levels I am up against. Totally impacts my strategy in game playing due to uncertainty. This makes it even more fun and harder to win. Surely it should have been built into this game and shall be implemented into BB after passing v1.0.
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I can't change the poll options, but feel free to use the last option if you'd like to try WhiteMage's proposal. I think you can change your vote if you've already voted.
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(March 12th, 2014, 10:29)Catwalk Wrote: WhiteMage, what is the reasoning behind your rules?
I stated it earlier that I can write a book about this.
Here is the oversimplified version: 
First I established why I like this game. Answer: challenge; re-playability; desire to use the full extent of the game's options; use my full knowledge about the game and my brain power and finally narrowly lose or narrowly win against a formidable opposition. 
After playing just 1 game, I realized that although this is a great game compared to other Turn Based Strategy Games out there, these are not possible due to the poor AI and the long list of exploits, and a few other factors.

So next is to establish a small set of self imposed rules that will approach the goal of having a 50% chance of winning.
I took meticulous notes of my played games and performed post-game analysis in a short form making it as quantified as possible. A few key variables: main reasons why I lost or won the game, personal fun factor of playing that specific game, observed specific AI weakness, observed overpowered game features and exploits, proposed rule change for my next game to make the game more interesting.

Kyrub's 1.40m was a major help and I would never consider playing on a lower version due to those would make the games instantly boring for me and in general are easier to win.
A few example observations, which I successfully addressed with my rules: 
1. Overpowered scouts in early game. Solution: scrap them. Require all ship designs to have weapon, which makes early scouts medium size.
2. Overpowered biological weapons. Solution: ban them for my use.
3. Overpowered first colony ship. Solution: scrap it. Require all ships to have weapon.
4. Overpowered use of transport to take technology from opponents, boost economy, manipulate election results, remedy negative random events. It also required a lot of micromanagement. Solution: ban transports. It also has the positive side effect of helping enemy espionage attempts of turning my planets against me: I can't take it back with transport.
5. Low utility of capturing Orion. Solution: make it required to capture Orion and integrate it into score, so it will not be done when I only have a few enemy planets left. This gives dilemma if I go for Orion early or against the enemy.
6. I micromanaged planet infusion too much that lead to boredom. Solution: limit it to one per planet each turn. (Currently I consider 1 per turn.)
7. AI is generally weak in diplomacy. I tried to limit it in various ways, but was not successful in achieving desired result. Also, I was too successful in exchanging techs and doing espionage. Banning tech exchange proved too much. Solution: lower number of AI players from 5 to 4. (I currently consider 3.) Using with the rest of my rules, winning against 5 opponents is easier than against 4.
8. Winning by election was too easy and too boring. It also loses a lot of potential extra playing and fun. Solution: Make it required to conquer galaxy and ban winning by election.
9. AI is generally lost on huge maps and I can dance around AI and kill it. Solution: disallow huge galaxy.
10. AI is generally passive and weak. Start final war as soon as possible and integrate that into the scoring function rather than declare an arbitrary deadline to start final war, which is not equally applicable to different games.
11. I don’t want to become a specialist who plays and replays similar games in any regard. Solution: make new games as random as possible. If repeated strategy is observed during game play, then try to counter it with new rules.
12. I was a competitive chess player and taking back move was not allowed. This taught me to make a good game to be maximally cheat free, non-ambiguous, and non-forgiving. Competition is good in chess and in all sports. Without that, interest is lacking. The only way a competition is possible if players play by the same rules. Whatever move I make in chess, MOO, and any other game is final. I accept my mistakes, even randomness, misclicks, losing colony ship to Orion, forgetting to change my planet's ship production, etc. For the sake of competition, data collection, and preempting future arguments, others should do the same.




Main iterative phases: observe, explain, fix problem through rule design. 




I am adamant about finding rules that are applicable to all situations, nonambiguous, easy to understand, easy to remember, and small in numbers. (Quite the opposite of stated Imperia rules IMO).




I think I found an ideal set of rules and I observed that small Galaxies are harder to win than large Galaxies for reasons stated above. So further tuning may be needed, but I need more data. All of my decisions are based on data and not on theory alone. A tournament performed on my current rules would provide me more data, even though few players are available. I may have overlooked something. Maybe there is an exploit, which is so strong that someone can use it to win with P>75%, etc.
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@ Whitemage

About scrapping the default colony ship, you mean the player won't get a colony until an armed colony ship is built?
Do the AIs keep their initial fleets?

Banning transports, total ban - no population moved to own planets either?
... and keep it under Lightspeed!
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(March 13th, 2014, 02:16)Zieman Wrote: About scrapping the default colony ship, you mean the player won't get a colony until an armed colony ship is built?
Yes. The AI needs that help.

(March 13th, 2014, 02:16)Zieman Wrote: Do the AIs keep their initial fleets?
Yes.
(March 13th, 2014, 02:16)Zieman Wrote: Banning transports, total ban - no population moved to own planets either?
Correct. Total ban. Not for disease, not for rebelling colony, not for 0 population owned colony, etc.
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