[Spoilers PB23] Old Harry's attempt at civilizing AdrienIer

[AdrienIer]

Let them fear our wrath :

[Commodore]

Both of you making fun of English dentistry, eh?

[Old Harry]

Sigh. If only my teeth were that good...

Edit:
I'm sure this will come in handy...

1. Dreylin/Ipecac/Ruff - Monty of Vikings (AGG/SPI)
2. AdrianIer/Old Harry - Shaka of Rome (AGG/EXP)
3. Agent427/TBS - Genghis of Zulu (AGG/IMP)
4. Caledorn/Plako - Julius Caesar of HRE (ORG/IMP)
5. Elum/Mackoti - Augustus Caesar of Persia (IND/IMP)
6. Grimace/Wetbandit - Mehmed II of Korea (EXP/ORG)
7. Whosit/Gavagai - Washington of Mongolia (EXP/CHA)

[AdrienIer]

It's obviously way too early to really talk strategy (we don't even know if the game will be on RtR mod or BTS), so I'm just going to post random ideas in this post so that if we end up doing one of them I can look like I know what I'm doing.

About the mod I have no preference because while RtR is much better for balance I'm used to standard BTS.

I've been toying with the idea of a temple economy for a while, I should probably do that in a SP game though because even with Sankhore, the Minaret, the AP and the Sistine Chapel building temples and monasteries is probably not optimal. Also it would probably mean choosing Gandhi which isn't great, and any strategy that might involve building the Angkor Wat to run priests is

So I suppose we'll just pick Darius of Ottomans like everyone else and play the usual dull cottage game.

If we're going for RtR industrious becomes more interesting due to the smaller resource bonus, and I'd be happy to take Huayna Capac. If it's BTS I suppose there will be many bans and there will be less choice. Also Civ choice will depend on the starting situation. I'd rather not take a late civ (except my personal favorite the Dutch), at least one bonus early-ish and one midgame would be perfect.

[GermanJoey]

What are your thoughts on the traits in RtR? Any appeal to you more now than in BTS, and vice-versa?

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

Good luck in this dude! I'll hang back and let you play with Old Harry's help, unless you specifically wanted occasional input from another dedlurker (but I know if I were you I would like to keep the pitbosses different experiences for more fun). I will not globally spoil myself until I hear back off you.

I would be very impressed to see a monk economy pulled off in multiplayer. It just takes such a lot of hammers to kick off sacrificing expansion, whilst vs diety AI with little to build and crippling expansion costs it can be quite viable. Plus it makes you such a target. Interesting that you jump straight for a specialist monk econ, why that over going a cottage IND one to save hammers, and trying to keep up with expansion? (the apostolic palace is such a burn on hammers)

[AdrienIer]

We've discussed the RtR traits with great length in our PB22 thread, you should read it ! Oh wait...
There are some pretty big differences, agg is now useful during your peaceful expansion and pro is ok now. The main nerf is obviously fin but it was just way too good to start with so it's still one of the best traits if not the best one. The only problem is that it's more situational now, if you have a land covered with rivers it's probably worse than most traits but if you're on a lake or archipelago map type it remains a must have. I like the new expansive, with cheap markets and grocers you can grow your economy nicely during the middle ages if you have some hammers available. All in all I'm impressed by how balanced it all is. There's also a lot to say about the civ changes, but there's one I really dislike and it's the Trading Post change. It was a huge boost but could have been nerfed with a higher cost IMO. My general POV is that when playing a different civ should have a different feel, and playing the Vikings gave you just that. A civ like the Ottomans is considered boring by many because of this lack of specificity.

Muffin I have no answer to give you, I'd be happy to have you come by to discuss our strategy but I'd understand if you wanted to spoil yourself.
Going all in on temples is really risky, even moreso in MP. Maybe I'll try it in SP one of these days and if it works and I feel comfortable trying it elsewhere I'll reconsider it. About cottages vs specialists this whole idea came from when I was trying to find a viable strategy involving the ToA and the Angkor Wat which I never build. So I needed many priests, therefore many temples and therefore all the temple bonus.
Also I agree that the AP costs a lot but 1) it gives you 2h per religious building which is a nice compensation and 2) you can always try for a cheesy religious victory in BTS.

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

We've discussed the RtR traits with great length in our PB22 thread, you should read it ! Oh wait...
There are some pretty big differences, agg is now useful during your peaceful expansion and pro is ok now. The main nerf is obviously fin but it was just way too good to start with so it's still one of the best traits if not the best one. The only problem is that it's more situational now, if you have a land covered with rivers it's probably worse than most traits but if you're on a lake or archipelago map type it remains a must have. I like the new expansive, with cheap markets and grocers you can grow your economy nicely during the middle ages if you have some hammers available. All in all I'm impressed by how balanced it all is. There's also a lot to say about the civ changes, but there's one I really dislike and it's the Trading Post change. It was a huge boost but could have been nerfed with a higher cost IMO. My general POV is that when playing a different civ should have a different feel, and playing the Vikings gave you just that. A civ like the Ottomans is considered boring by many because of this lack of specificity.

Muffin I have no answer to give you, I'd be happy to have you come by to discuss our strategy but I'd understand if you wanted to spoil yourself.
Going all in on temples is really risky, even moreso in MP. Maybe I'll try it in SP one of these days and if it works and I feel comfortable trying it elsewhere I'll reconsider it. About cottages vs specialists this whole idea came from when I was trying to find a viable strategy involving the ToA and the Angkor Wat which I never build. So I needed many priests, therefore many temples and therefore all the temple bonus.
Also I agree that the AP costs a lot but 1) it gives you 2h per religious building which is a nice compensation and 2) you can always try for a cheesy religious victory in BTS.

How about I sit around and give an extra bit of input for the start at least? I won't lead you for a civ choice, I will let you mull everything over and choose your own but certainly for a starting strategy it is always helpful to have someone else think of different openings (especially with spiritual choices IE when to go for bronze)

With the temple strategy the common diety way to get it whilst staying in contention expansion wise is going IND, building either the oracle and slinging theo or stonehenge and bulbing theology with your first priest, because without IND you just end up sinking huge hammer amounts early on when they are less available. While Ankor Wat it is nice, mids for rep would be better to run 1h/1g/3sci priests rather than 2h/1g ones no? I think the priest eco just relies on a lot of wonders is all :/

Also with the fin change, as well as what you mentioned, you have a very interesting paradox with river tiles don't you - they are 2/0/2 cottages to begin with, but at hamlets river and non river are both 2/0/3 tiles. So early on they are more powerful but later watermills and workshops that gain a commerce being waterside are more powerful. That is the nerf I rather like to fin. The ToW change doesn't really make you change your gameplan, the fin bonus is later but river cottages are obviously better throughout the game, whereas there are different possibilities here.

[AdrienIer]

For the record I don't think I'll take Spi unless OH is really comfortable with its intricacies. I've never played a serious game with spi so no way I'm trying that on a real game without more input. But I'd be glad to have different ideas about openings.
You're right, with all the wonder building you're probably better off going for ind, but then you have to choose between the cheap temples and religious civ changes of spi and the specialist bonus of phi. And don't you think that 2h/1g/3s priests are even better ? I don't know how much people prioritize angkor wat here but I imagine it's pretty low.

You're right, watermilling or workshoping river tiles is very tempting if you're fin, and the Colossus for a maritime economy can be a game changer.

[Old Harry]

Heh, well I love SPI because of how lazy it lets you be. To get the best from it I hear you need an early religion and/or the Pyramids, so it may not fit best with how you want to play. I've had it in two of my four games here and while I don't think it was the key factor in doing well it did let me build buildings with OR bonus and military with Police State, pop borders and get extra hammers with Caste before short slavery sprees, and alternate bursts of Bureau-teching and drafting, so it's got a lot of late-game potential. Especially with the much more level RtR civics. (I'm hoping for RtR because it's just easier to remember one style of gameplay at a time.)

We had a lot of fun (and some heartache) with AGG in PB13 and if this is going to be a tight or a naval map the lower threshold for Amphibious or Commando will be a very different late-game advantage from SPI.

I've avoided IND recently because we played 18 and 33 player games and thought the chances of getting any wonders was low, but in this game the prospect of an early wonder and cheap forges is attractive...

What you really need though is an early game trait, to get you in a position to use the late game advantages, so one of PRO, EXP and IMP is probably vital. I'm assuming Krill will make a fairly lush map so spamming cities early on could be a winner. I guess a starting screenshot will give us a bit more to go on.

Oh, and feel free to chip in whatever you like REM, more cooks are always better (as the famous saying goes) and it's not like I know what I'm doing!

Any thoughts on which civs you want to play?