TheHumanHydra Loses His Head(s) [Spoilers]

[TheHumanHydra]

This shall be my thread. My thread shall this be. More later.

[retep]

Hi, do you want a dedlurker? How much do you like this game?

[Commodore]

This, or a rotation of this, is your start. Avunt!

Fog reading bad, mkay?

[TheHumanHydra]

Thanks, Commodore.

Retep, I'd be glad to have you, though to be honest I'm not sure I can keep up with you in terms of micro-talk. Don't worry about killing the game; PBEM 62 died well enough on its own without you - oh wait, you were on Ichabod's team, weren't you?

What I think I need most in this game is someone who has a good macro 'feel' for the game, someone who thinks positively (to my negatively), who can help keep me focused and level-headed when setbacks happen. PBEMs 46 and 62 have taught me that when setbacks occur, I tend to blow them way out of proportion and adopt irrational and self-destructive courses of action. I need someone to help counterbalance that tendency. Retep, I'd welcome your help on this, although (and I hope you'll take this as analysis and not criticism) I feel you may fall with me on the more 'negative' side of thinking. If anyone else would also like to join this team to help in this area, that would also be appreciated.

Now, as for this start, we haven't even picked yet, but it looks like the main choice will be between settling in place and moving 1SW to get the food resources (including an additional plains hill deer) first-ring. Conventional wisdom says settle on the hill, though being adjacent to the corn does generally mean the city can grow one turn sooner when you first start growing it, if that becomes relevant. The deer might also be a good tile to work with IMP if we are inclined to take it, which I am. These reasons are probably spurious next to the permanent +1 hammer from settling in place, especially with IMP, but I don't want to dismiss a possibility out of hand. I will start simming later today hopefully.

I am going to post this and move on to discuss picks in the next post.

[TheHumanHydra]

Traits: we all know what the best ones are in BtS by now, with a little bit of personal variation in the middle ranks. This part of the post will be highly subjective, then, concerning what I feel I'll be able to use best and what I'll enjoy using. As a reminder, Fin is banned except with Wang Kon, as is Suryavarman.

Fin (and Pro) - My top pick would be Wang Kon. Yes, Fin is my crutch. However, I am interested to attempt a mackoti-style workshop economy sometime, so that could be a benefit of not picking this or of it being picked before us. I would not mind pairing this with Pro, because it is that strong, and because to be honest I wouldn't mind the extra bit of deterrent. I think a lot of players would look at Pro and say, 'naw, I don't really want to attack into that,' especially in the crucial Middle Ages - which might be even more relevant if Fin is used successfully to create an economic lead that might encourage attacks otherwise. So, without hearing lurker advice, Wang Kon would be my no. 1 pick. I am open to being dissuaded (though I might fight hard) and it is possible he will be taken before he gets to us.

Org - If Fin is not available, I feel that I might want another $$$ trait. I also enjoy the fast build-times of a number of important buildings that always seem to have long build-times in their respective eras. This trait would rank highly for me.

Imp - This trait is the one I think I find the most 'fun' to play with. Finding ways to convert tons of hammers into EVEN MOAR HAMMERS on a vital build just feels good. This trait can have a significant impact in the early game, but quickly loses steam. Still, this trait ranks highly for me for a combination of utility at a key point in the game (the start) and enjoyment.

Exp - Good for the same reasons as Imp, but better, though for some reason I've always found it less viscerally fun. I believe I could come to enjoy this trait equally, however, and its power is undeniable. I expect this to be the no. 1 trait for lurkers to try and talk me into, and I am amenable.

Cre - I don't typically pick Cre leaders, in single- or multi-player, but they sure do grease the wheels. This is another trait that quickly runs out of steam, however. I would be amenable to picking this trait as well, though if left to my own devices I suspect I'll default to picking something else.

Chm - I find this trait quite fun, though I know it's weak. I can't give you any rational reasons for picking this, but if forced to, I won't object.

Phi - 'Great People' is another item on my list of things to learn how to use eventually. I'm not sure this is the game to do it, as I feel I have some more foundational lessons to reinforce first. As such, I would not be keen to pick this trait, as I don't understand how to leverage its bonus most effectively (intensive planning for Great Person generation, determining the comparative utility of specific Great Persons, etc.).

Ind - I don't know if anyone's noticed, but I tend not to emphasize wonders in my gameplay, often just picking up the scraps. This is an imbalance in my gameplay, but, again, maybe not the most important to address at the moment. (And for the record, I am not keen to contest an early wonder like Stonehenge or the Oracle that would set me far behind if I failed to get it). Is the forge bonus relevant (for my game plan)? I'm not sure that it's enough to justify picking this trait.

Spi - I dislike this trait. To an even greater extent than I am unskilled at effectively planning for and leveraging Great People, I am unskilled at planning for and reaping optimal benefit from frequent civics changes. As even higher on the complexity scale than learning to use Great People and wonders, I am not keen to take on learning this trait for a long time. It would either give me a headache, or I wouldn't use it. Let's not use it.

Agg - Well, um, if we have to, I guess. Seems best in the late game when you can get some really nasty promotions reliably with it. I think I need something to help me get to the late game first, however.

Pro - Only if with Fin. Planning to make use of this trait would be an example of planning to fail, in my opinion.

Retep, any others who jump on board, do you have any opinions on the above? Thanks for reading.

[TheHumanHydra]

Shoot, I've been writing my PBEM 62 retrospective (half-finished, you can read the first and most important half in my thread, last post) and haven't given enough thought to picks. Well, I've gone over the traits; at this point I'll pick Wang Kon if he's open, if not I'll have to do some more thinking but I have a basis. Now I need to think about civs.

Miguelito has picked Carthage, presumably for the cothons (he will probably pick an Exp leader, which shouldn't be hard to get). Other maritime civs include Portugal, whose feitoria increases commerce on water tiles, and the Netherlands, whose dike increases production on water tiles (the Vikings are banned). Dikes usually come too late to make much difference in a PBEM, but feitorias might be useful. We'll probably have tons of intercontinental trade routes on this map to receive the customs house's normal benefit, and the feitoria adds a free Colossus wonder to the mix. As for the accompanying unique units, I'm not sure how useful either will be, as the mainland should be galley-reachable (otherwise Portugal is broken) and I feel the East Indiaman might quickly be outclassed by frigates. The carrack might still open a window of opportunity for easier amphibious strikes. I don't really like the Portuguese's starting techs for my start, however, while the Dutch's would be fine. Altogether, I'm not sure how I feel about either of these civs.

Looking at the start, it seems I need Agriculture, as my first food resource is corn and I need to tech Animal Husbandry right away to be able to improve my second, sheep. What are some other Agriculture civs? (I feel unexpectedly rusty at this. Haven't really played much Civ in some time, I guess.)

America - Um, no.

Babylon - The bowman, while unimpressive, might help deter others from rushing me. I really don't want to get rushed again in this game. The garden appears to be irrelevant until factories. The Wheel is good.

China - I wouldn't mind giving them another go. Mining is good; I'm not sure it's better than the Wheel on this start, though. The Cho-Ko-Nu is excellent, of course. The pavilion might be useful for a cultural victory attempt. Why am I saying stuff everyone knows already?

The Netherlands - As above. Fishing is fine. I don't have a seafood resource at this start, but it'll be important on this map.

Egypt - The obelisk integrates with the kind of intensively-planned Great Person strategy I'm trying to avoid, but it might allow for an early shrine whose religion would spread far due to the intercontinental trade routes everyone will want with each other. I generally dislike going down the religion tree early, though, although I could break that pattern. More important (usually) is the war chariot, which I was just trashed by in PBEM 62. I'd be inclined to pick this on a normal map, but early warfare seems more difficult in this setup. Still, that could play to one's advantage with Egypt; I don't think anyone would expect an early war chariot force to come swooping in to knock their initial settlement onto the mainland off the map. This seems a little ambitious and convoluted for what I just want to be a simple, solid, game, though. Wow, way too much text for Egypt.

[strikethrough]England[/strikethrough] Britain - Inserted just because it would make me happy. Forget it.

France - I hate France's uniques. The salon seems useless, and as much as I understand the utility of a two-mover that isn't cavalry and can receive defensive bonuses, I just don't want to be running around with crappy musketmen. Maybe some lurker can shake me out of this obstructive attitude. That said, the unique unit does come at a time when it can be decisive, and it is an Agriculture - Wheel civ.

The Inca - Wait, we banned them.

Native America - Another pointless unique building that nevertheless would make me happy because it would make me less tasty to chew on. The dog soldier seems to be (checks Civ wiki) ... better at its job. Still not impressed, as I'm not sure that'll be relevant.

The Ottoman Empire - My gut likes this better than France, but I'm not sure it's right. I like the style of the janissary better than that of the musketeer, but I'm not sure it's better, probably worse, at effecting a conquest. The hamman seems to make its base building actually relevant, though. I might pick this.

Persia - Both its uniques seem irrelevant.

Sumer - An actually-relevant unique building and a unique unit of dubious value. This might be a good pick, except I'm concerned I won't actually be able to take advantage of the ability to build courthouses earlier because of the extra hammers that will have to be spent in the same time-frame on boats and probably lighthouses in settling the mainland. Still, cheaper courthouses plus Org might be good.

Zululand - I'm not sure the unique unit is relevant on this map, and I'm not sure the unique building is relevant at all. Hmph.

Out of these, I feel like I 'should' take France if possible, though Egypt, the Ottomans, and Sumer are interesting. Pretty standard. I don't really have very strong feelings; probably means I should pick leader first, as I was planning to. There'll be an Agriculture civ left for me, and that seems to be what counts most. This gives me a little bit more time to think about this and try and develop some stronger feelings.

[TheHumanHydra]

Okay, new thoughts: simming it, it looks like techs come really fast on these settings, so much so that I don't need to start with Agriculture to be able to improve the corn and the sheep without delay. So I can pick any civ I want for the value of their uniques. Hmm.

China - This is still an Agriculture civ, but I forgot Cho-Ko-Nus can deal their collateral damage amphibiously. This might be a huge advantage.

Byzantium - What holds Byzantium down is its starting techs. If that's not an issue, cataphracts become more attractive ... but they do seem to be a 'win-more' option.

Rome - See Byzantium, though praetorians are more of a tool to enable aggressive expansion than an offensive weapon. (I don't think I'll pick this.)

Portugal - Portugal's very maritime-friendly uniques seem a lot more attractive now.

Spain - The conquistador's bonuses make it seem like a combination cuirassier/musketeer, obviating the French unit's advantages. The citadel gives +1 (likely intercontinental) trade route, though it's not around for long. It would enable an earlier Military Tradition in lieu of Economics, though ... and builds twice as fast with Wang Kon's Pro. This would be an amusing, if not optimal, pick.

The Holy Roman Empire - Rathauses are known to be good. Maybe if I pick Org.

Britain The redcoat is an awesome replacement to a frequently-used unit in a decisive era. The stock exchange is not irrelevant. And this would make me very happy.

Bonus:

Aggressive - I realized this trait lets you make Amphibious units really easily, just a barracks and the Heroic Epic required. Not necessarily reason enough to pick it, but berserkers are good ...

I actually am thinking China and Portugal are the most attractive civs now. Byzantium is still appealing for the 'why not?'/scariness factor, Spain for the lolz, and Britain for the awesomeness. Will think on this further.

[retep]

Okay some thoughs.

- I normally write things for entertaiment value, normally the only things that bother me is when people don't play their turns but setbacks in game are actually okay, give more time to think what to do.
Is funny but you sound like Ichabod, always a pessimist

- Moving the settler would make the worker take longer, which offset the value of improving the corn faster.

-About leader picks, I think that Wang Kon is a bad pick. Pro is giving you nothing useful.(especially in this map) and while I see the value of FIN in a map when water will be predominant I don't think is worth it.
Myself, I'm a big fan of ORG (my favorite trait after all) which seems strong in a map when you are probably going to need lighthouses in most of your cities. EXP is always strong but i think CRE could be good here too. Normally seafood appear in second ring of the cities, wich means most of your cities would need a border pop to get all their food, this of course let you skip all the religious path.

-China sounds great, but if techs come fast enough maybe you would consider going for a religion early? (If you don't pick CRE) I think that a way to pop borders fast would be a priority.

-You sound worry about a rush, as far as I know you start alone in your island right? I don't think you would get rush then and amphibious attack early in a PITA to do and normally don't give enough benefits. I think that first thing you should be considering is if you want to rush for the center island from the start or settle all your island first.

And now I'm off to eat, try to sim something later tonight.

[TheHumanHydra]

Thanks for your thoughts, retep.

- Moving the settler would make the worker take longer, which offset the value of improving the corn faster.

Herp-a-derp, duh. This is what I don't like about doing analysis, I always forget something and say something really stupid while trying to sound smart.

-About leader picks, I think that Wang Kon is a bad pick. Pro is giving you nothing useful.(especially in this map) and while I see the value of FIN in a map when water will be predominant I don't think is worth it.

Can you explain more why you don't think Fin is worth it? Or do you mean not worth Pro?

Myself, I'm a big fan of ORG (my favorite trait after all) which seems strong in a map when you are probably going to need lighthouses in most of your cities. EXP is always strong but i think CRE could be good here too. Normally seafood appear in second ring of the cities, wich means most of your cities would need a border pop to get all their food, this of course let you skip all the religious path.

I think this is very good analysis and would not at all be opposed to picking Zara Yaqob (I do want to deal with the Wang Kon question first, though).

-China sounds great, but if techs come fast enough maybe you would consider going for a religion early? (If you don't pick CRE) I think that a way to pop borders fast would be a priority.

I was thinking about this too, though I think I'd prefer Cre. Missionaries means more boat trips and hammers spent.

-You sound worry about a rush, as far as I know you start alone in your island right? I don't think you would get rush then and amphibious attack early in a PITA to do and normally don't give enough benefits. I think that first thing you should be considering is if you want to rush for the center island from the start or settle all your island first.

What I meant was getting rushed on the centre island. I agree it's probably not too great a concern; I'm not sure why I wrote that about Babylon (who I don't want to pick). My other concerns about being attacked were oriented toward the Middle Ages.

That is a good question you bring up; to be honest I think we're going to have to see just how big the starting island is first.

And now I'm off to eat, try to sim something later tonight.

Thanks again. I wouldn't worry about simming too much yet. I did build a sandbox today, but the first few turns are pretty obvious and I don't think we have enough information yet to go much further (what our pairing will be, what some of the surrounding terrain is). If you want to, by all means, but I'm not yet.

[TheHumanHydra]

Also, do you think I should pick China first, retep?