Number of ship designs

[WhiteMage]

I am collecting data for our development of the next generation of MOO (new game, not patch).
1. What is your opinion on MOO's limit of having 6 ship designs available at any time? (answer: 1 = awful, 2 = bad, 3 = neutral/no opinion, 4 = good, 5 = excellent)
2. What number would work best in MOO for available ship designs, assuming nothing else changed (apart from making space for them in battle by growing battlefield and fleet selection view)?
3. How do you rate your knowledge of MOO? (1 = very poor, 2 = poor, 3 = average, 4 = good, 5 = excellent)
4. How do you rate the likelihood that you beat MOO with random race on impossible small or medium map with Kyrub's MOO v1.40m patch? [no cheating, but exploits OK] (nearly impossible = 1, unlikely = 2, tossup = 3, likely = 4, almost certainly = 5)
5. Write comments around the issue of the number of ship designs in MOO.

Thank you,

[kyrub]

1. 4 (I used to think it was one of the best features, but it's really not.)
2. 7 (one place is reserved for colony ship).
3. 5 for early to mid game (3 for endgame and Guardian scenarios, I almost never get that far)
4. Without the patch 4 (medium), with the patch probably closer to 3, but I did not really play it. I never use exploits.

5. NOTES: If the restriction is lifted, there is more space for "exploits" like 30 designs with Black hole gen. Not sure if one can react by standard counter-designing. // With bigger variety in weapon systems or ship design I'd go with slightly more designs. My designs tend to favour the same strengths (larger ship, manoeuver, computer, preference for distance weapons, no shield). If the game offers less obvious choices (like small ships being better or shields being valuable or HEF being less intimidating), more purposes for a ship weapon, I'd like to have more designs (up to 10 or even 12). // I would love to play the new version even with unlimited number of designs. It's not that important, it just makes the decision when to scrap the old ship and design the new one harder to do. Without design limit, the scrapping would be more of an economic decision, less important.


I am looking forward to the new version! Fingers crossed.

[Ianus]

1. 5

2. 6

3. 5

4. 4

5. I think that the scale of the game does not really support more than 6 designs. In a 3d battlefield more ships would be feasable but in a simple 10x12(??) 2d space the presence of more types of ships would clutter things unnecessarily. In addition there just aren't enough distinct technologies for more ships to be required. As kyrub says the only result would be an increase in exploits.
A limit of 6 designs keeps things simple and also necessitates STRATEGY, which is the whole point.

[WhiteMage]

1. 5

2. 6

3. 5

4. 4

5. I think that the scale of the game does not really support more than 6 designs. In a 3d battlefield more ships would be feasable but in a simple 10x12(??) 2d space the presence of more types of ships would clutter things unnecessarily. In addition there just aren't enough distinct technologies for more ships to be required. As kyrub says the only result would be an increase in exploits.
A limit of 6 designs keeps things simple and also necessitates STRATEGY, which is the whole point.

I understand. But in MOO, the battlefield was 8x10, not 12x10. Also, by stating "apart from making space for them in battle", I meant possibly growing the size of the 2D battlefield. Does this change your answer?

[Ianus]

I understand. But in MOO, the battlefield was 8x10, not 12x10. Also, by stating "apart from making space for them in battle", I meant possibly growing the size of the 2D battlefield. Does this change your answer?

I think it would depend on how much the size of the battlefield increased. If the attacker were able to approach an enemy planet from opposite directions for example, or if there were enough space to scatter ships all over the place to snipe at the enemy from cover then having more designs would be critical.
But scaling up the battlefield simply to allow for the presence of more ship stacks has some inherent issues. Let's say you simply double the size of the battlefield to 16x20 (thank you for the clarification by the way). Then either the "new" battlefield view is the same as the "original" just everything is half the size, or you will need to add panning/zooming functionality to the battlefield. I like the idea of making the battlefield more dynamic and once you add variable scaling there is no limit to the area where battles take place, but then you run the risk of making a significant departure from the game you are remaking. Just my $0.02 of course.
I look forward to seeing what y'all come up with!

[Ianus]

I just had another idea. What if instead of permitting more designs there were some kind of option to split stacks of ships either before or during battle? Just a thought.

[WhiteMage]

I just had another idea. What if instead of permitting more designs there were some kind of option to split stacks of ships either before or during battle? Just a thought.

Awesome. I proposed the exact same idea to Brent and colleagues. They are yet to be convinced. I am glad that you came up with this independently from me.

[Ianus]

I like the idea more the more I think about it. But for it to be a strong addition to the game there needs to be some kind of trade off, like some sort of damage modifier that is dependent on stack size. And of course you are still increasing the number of stacks in battle necessitating an increase in battlefield size.

[kyrub]

Just a side note: there are again a number of problems that arise with the idea: namely splitting up ships with special will end up with the specials being a lot more effective (BHG, Stream projectors have damage 20% + number of ships in stack, so 10 stacks will be a lot more effective than 1 stack with same number of ships, Pulsars, Repulsors become massively effective against bombers etc.). Last but not least there is the issue of stack being targetted by missiles - and what happens when it splits.
The idea is not impossible and I'd like the battles to be more structured, but it brings quite a few complications to the old MoO game design, that must be solved.


From another point of view, the battles need a cap on number of stacks that participate. I dislike large scope battles in multilevel strategies (e.g. in strategies that focus on more levels that just the battle), they detract from other parts of the game. HoMM 3 got this about right, 8 stacks X 8 stacks is the right scope for short, radical battle with some tactics involved. I would say 8-10 stacks in battle from any player.

[WhiteMage]

Thanks so much again guys. All good points. I already worked out all of these details and currently discussing with the team. I will ask questions here as needed and we occasionally post progress at http://www.beyondbeyaan.blogspot.com . I try not to leak out more since it is a work in progress and we change ideas/directions often.