EXP per unit killed

[Seravy]

Currently, each unit is worth its cost/32 EXP +1 rounded down. So Spearmen, Swordsmen are 1, Cavalry are 2, Magicians are 4 etc.
However, since the cost field of fantastic creatures is not used for any purpose (lairs are using the costs from a different file, AI decisions on which unit is better now use a dedicated table, and spell costs are again a different file), we can adjust these in any way we please for each fantastic creature.
I can't help but feel clearing lairs is way too rewarding in exp compared to...normal battles, even though it is easier to clear since there are no opposing wizards.
That said, I still think a powerful fantastic unit should be worth more EXP than just a simple hammerhand, but the amount...might not need revision. The current cost is set to roughly the actual cost of units, with minor adjustments on very easy or very hard to kill units.

How much do you think a unit of X creature should be worth? (feel free to even post tables with actual numbers)

Or maybe the problem is the neutrals being too easy? Maybe EXP from neutral sources should be halved while EXP from wizards remains the same? (even in this case, a revision of EXP values for each monster might be a good idea)

[Seravy]

I propose the following EXP table for the next version :
Neutral enemies :half of the values below rounded up.
Normal units : same as before 1+(cost/32)
1 EXP : Magic Spirit, Skeletons
2 EXP : Hell Hounds, Guardian Spirit, Phantom Warrior
3 EXP : Fire Elemental, Zombies, Nagas, War Bears
4 EXP : Ghouls, Sprites
5 EXP : Werewolves, Gargoyles, Fire Giants, Giant Spiders, Phantom Beast
6 EXP : Chimeras, Demon, Unicorns, Cockatrices
7 EXP : Chaos Spawn, Shadow Demons, Angel, Great Lizard
8 EXP : Earth Elemental, Air Elemental, Night Stalker
10 EXP : Hydra, Wraiths
12 EXP : Doom Bat, Efreet, Stone Giant, Storm Giant
15 EXP : Death Knights, Gorgons, Djinn
20 EXP : Demon Lord, Arch Angel, Great Drake, Great Wyrm
25 EXP : Sky Drake, Colossus

[Nelphine]

I've always found great drakes harder than sky drakes, once I'm able to constantly clear nodes. Sky drakes require an archer or a strong melee. Great drakes sometimes chew up the melee that can take sky drakes

I guess it depends on your strategy for node clearing.

[namad]

I propose the following EXP table for the next version :
Neutral enemies :half of the values below rounded up.
Normal units : same as before 1+(cost/32)
1 EXP : Magic Spirit, Skeletons
2 EXP : Hell Hounds, Guardian Spirit, Phantom Warrior
3 EXP : Fire Elemental, Zombies, Nagas, War Bears
4 EXP : Ghouls, Sprites
5 EXP : Werewolves, Gargoyles, Fire Giants, Giant Spiders, Phantom Beast
6 EXP : Chimeras, Demon, Unicorns, Cockatrices
7 EXP : Chaos Spawn, Shadow Demons, Angel, Basilisk
8 EXP : Earth Elemental, Air Elemental, Night Stalker
10 EXP : Hydra, Wraiths
12 EXP : Doom Bat, Efreet, Stone Giant, Storm Giant
15 EXP : Death Knights, Gorgons, Djinn
20 EXP : Demon Lord, Arch Angel, Great Drake, Great Wyrm
25 EXP : Sky Drake, Colossus

What were the old values?

[Seravy]

I propose the following EXP table for the next version :
Neutral enemies :half of the values below rounded up.
Normal units : same as before 1+(cost/32)
1 EXP : Magic Spirit, Skeletons
2 EXP : Hell Hounds, Guardian Spirit, Phantom Warrior
3 EXP : Fire Elemental, Zombies, Nagas, War Bears
4 EXP : Ghouls, Sprites
5 EXP : Werewolves, Gargoyles, Fire Giants, Giant Spiders, Phantom Beast
6 EXP : Chimeras, Demon, Unicorns, Cockatrices
7 EXP : Chaos Spawn, Shadow Demons, Angel, Basilisk
8 EXP : Earth Elemental, Air Elemental, Night Stalker
10 EXP : Hydra, Wraiths
12 EXP : Doom Bat, Efreet, Stone Giant, Storm Giant
15 EXP : Death Knights, Gorgons, Djinn
20 EXP : Demon Lord, Arch Angel, Great Drake, Great Wyrm
25 EXP : Sky Drake, Colossus

What were the old values?

The unit's mana cost/32 +- at most 50% if I felt the creature is too easy or hard to kill. For example a Demon Lord was 1+1500/32=47 which was the highest I believe. In general, most rare and very rare monsters were worth more than this new list, commons and uncommons about the same. (but the neutral 1/2 is a new separate thing)

[CujoQuarrel]

I've always found great drakes harder than sky drakes, once I'm able to constantly clear nodes. Sky drakes require an archer or a strong melee. Great drakes sometimes chew up the melee that can take sky drakes

I guess it depends on your strategy for node clearing.

Since I tend to use invisible heroes the Sky Drakes to me are much worse than Great Drakes. So it's how you play

[zitro1987]

*Edit: misunderstood that similar-exp units are used by AI stack-making. Will revise later.

[Seravy]

Unfortunately, since then the doomstack feature has been added, which picks units based on the same unit cost data that determines the EXP. This means the AI can only mix creatures in the stack if they are in the same row, otherwise prefers the highest cost one.
These are more important considerations than the EXP value, especially for flying creatures, or death/nature creatures that can gain water walking/wraith form to participate in the stackbuilding.

This is the most up-to-date table :

30 = 1 EXP : Magic Spirit
40 = 2 EXP : Hell Hounds, Guardian Spirits, Phantom Warriors
70 = 3 EXP : Zombies, War Bears, Nagas, Fire Elemental.
100 = 4 EXP : Sprites, Ghouls.
130 = 5 EXP : Gargoyles, Fire Giants, Werewolves, Giant Spiders, Phantom Beasts
180 = 6 EXP : Water Elemental, Demon, Unicorns, Cockatrices, Chimeras
210 = 7 EXP : Shadow Demons, Chaos Spawn, Great Lizard, Angel
240 = 8 EXP : Night Stalker, Air Elemental, Earth Elemental
300 = 10 EXP : Hydra, Wraiths
360 = 12 EXP : Doom Bat, Efreet, Stone Giant, Storm Giant.
450 = 15 EXP : Death Knights, Gorgons, Behemoths, Djinn
610 = 20 EXP : Demon Lord, Archangel, Great Wyrm, Great Drake
770 = 25 EXP : Sky Drake, Colossus

Zombies and Fire Elementals are good exp because incorrectly using these potent combat summons and losing the battle anyway should have the penalty of the enemy gaining more EXP off them. (also Zombie Mastery - the zombies being worth good exp balances that otherwise very strong spell a little)

Reducing Earth Elemental seems doable but again, it SHOULD be worth a lot, being one of the strongest combat summoning spells in the game.

I want to keep Angels in the same group as shadow demons and chaos spawn so they can mix. That's not ideal for movement speed, but should work well in combat. Meanwhile Doom Bats and Efreets don't gain much from being paired with an angel - angels in that stack would be a downgrade as bats and efreets are better. Lizards also benefit greatly from angels - they need the resistance boost badly.

Putting Angels in the Wraiths group might be worth considering though as both creatures are movement 5 rares and Wraiths definitely could use extra armor and resistance. It would be a great boost to the occasional, unlikely, water walking hydra as well.

I rather not split up the djinn/death knight/gorgon/behemoth group, same for the demon lord beloning with archangels and great drakes, not sky drakes (which do better if the stack is not mixed with other units)

Fire Giants seems to be fine in either the 5 or 6 EXP group, they are unlikely to have water movement anyway and even if they do they aren't that much weaker than the other things in the 6 EXP group (albeit they are weaker). So unsure on that one.

[Nelphine]

You get XP for combat summons? I've always assumed you don't. You don't get xp for lightning bolts, why would you get xp for combat summons? That also means the human gets far more XP from demon lords than computers do. Heck it means you WANT to face nature ai - you'll get XP and the other AI doesn't get that bonus.

If possible XP should be set by the stack at the start of the combat not the end.

Assuming that's NOT possible, combat summons should be set to very very low values, except as important for doomstscks. Otherwise, the human is just getting way too much value over the AI.

My suggested costs regardless of whether you can implement that (in which case combat summons are crap as doomstacks) or you can't implement that (in which case combat summons need to be undervalued by a large amount in order to avoid giving the human a benefit the AI does not get):

30 = 1 EXP : Magic Spirit, Phantom Warriors, Fire Elemental
40 = 2 EXP : Zombies, Guardian Spirits, Phantom Beasts, Earth Elemental
70 = 3 EXP : Sprites, Hell Hounds, War Bears
100 = 4 EXP : Ghouls, Nagas.
130 = 5 EXP : Gargoyles, Werewolves, Giant Spiders
180 = 6 EXP : Night Stalker, Air Elemental
210 = 7 EXP : Fire Giants, Water Elemental, Cockatrices, Chimeras
240 = 8 EXP : Shadow Demons, Great Lizard, Unicorns, Demon
270 = 9 EXP : Hydra, Chaos Spawn
300 = 10 EXP : Angel, Wraiths
330 = 11 EXP : Doom Bat
360 = 12 EXP : Efreet, Stone Giant, Storm Giant.
450 = 15 EXP : Gorgons, Behemoths
550 = 18 EXP : Death Knights
610 = 20 EXP : Great Drake, Djinn
640 = 21 EXP : Sky Drake
670 = 22 EXP : Great Wyrm, Colossus
770 = 25 EXP : Demon Lord, Archangel

Sprites combined with water walking war bears are actually much better as a doomstack. Nagas are freaking death machines and need to be higher. Fire giants are worth being higher just because they're actually that annoying to kill. Night Stalkers and Air Elementals are invisible, so yes, give them high value, and don't combine with anything else. But as soon as you CAN see invisible they're both garbage. And air elementals are combat summons so should be low anyway. Great lizards want resistance? Give them unicorns (which are also actually fairly strong in combat due to teleporting) don't waste angels on them. Hydra are slow as hell. Chaos spawn, you had far undervalued. Combine! (Note that I've made new groups. If we can't actually make new groups, I'll go over this again.) Angels and Wraiths are amazing combinations (I'd love to put death knights in this category too, but death knights need to be worth a lot more xp.) Doom bats should be in a category of their own - speed 6 is ridiculous for an overland reason, and stacking anything with them ruins that. Group 12 and 15 I have the hardest time with. I just have no idea. Bleh. Death knights, also super fast, should not be wasted on slow things. The only thing I'd consider pairing with death knights is archangels, but again, archangels are probably worth a lot more. Sky drakes should be by themselves. Magic immunity is only great if everything is magic immune. Demon Lords and Archangels are ridiculously strong. I'm curious why they aren't the top line already regardless of what you want to pair them with? I know you want to keep great drake with archangel, but honestly, they're so bloody weak compared to an archangel that they shouldn't be together - and life/chaos ai that get both units are ridiculously rare enough that I would not pair them together just for that reason.

[zitro1987]

Unfortunately, since then the doomstack feature has been added, which picks units based on the same unit cost data that determines the EXP. This means the AI can only mix creatures in the stack if they are in the same row, otherwise prefers the highest cost one.
These are more important considerations than the EXP value, especially for flying creatures, or death/nature creatures that can gain water walking/wraith form to participate in the stackbuilding.

I did not know AI used these for making doomstacks. That is far more important than a perfectly balanced set of XP points.

Now on general XPs, I see the reasoning behind reducing XP for neutrals and I'm wondering whether it should be balanced by an increase elsewhere to avoid nerfing experience gains:
*Reduce Neutral XP to 3/4 instead of 1/2 if fighting a node
*Wizard to wizard fights add +X experience if you win, depending on a measurable measure like what year it is. This takes into account the 'combat spell' difficulty. X should not exceed 5.
*Stationary defending units gain +2exp/turn (3/turn) if a war college is in that city.

... or maybe the nerf is warranted given how spell research slowed down, thus slowing down summons.