Lizardmen part 2

[Seravy]

Yep, it's them again, this is the second time these guys earned their own thread.

Watching the AI's performance and collecting statistics, as well as my own game experiences against them and what some forum posts imply, I think the race is currently overpowered, at the very least under AI control, but probably on the whole. I'll post more about that after collecting more data, but this one race is so far ahead I dare to say it's conclusive even from only this much.

This is not a surprise if you consider that
-They have 2.5 times the population growth bonus of an average race
-They pay a discounted price for settlers
-Their settlers can move twice as fast, and through water, so you can settle way more territory way faster than otherwise possible....and then those new cities grow really fast too!
-And their early standard units are probably the strongest in the game due to having an extra hit point which doubles to power of a swordmen unit and increases a halberdier by 50%.
-Complete domination of intercontinental travel as every unit is swimming, so enemy transports can be sunk easily before reaching shores.
-If that wasn't enough they also get a -1 unrest bonus on their own race.


That's a bit too much of good stuff in exchange for...what? A weaker late game? No Bank and Merchant's Guild, no Miner's and Mechanicians, no Parthenon and no University/Sage's Guild? Oh man I don't get an extra 60% gold and production but I have 3 times the usual amount of cities, that's horrible! (and this assumes you didn't conquer other races with your early strong units) My late game unit has the highest armor and resistance a normal unit can have but has weak attack power? omg what am I going to do with that...wait I can buy Paladins every turn in that one High Men city I found I have the largest empire to pay for the costs of anything if the armor on turtles is not enough to win...

So yeah, any idea how to fix this? Aside from reducing the +150 population to +120 and the +40 outpost growth to +30 which I most likely will do, but doubt is enough to fix it.

One last thing to mention, aside from one race dominating most games under AI control being boring, the other problem with it is, lizardmen have much slower turns than others because they have more stacks and those stacks are all intercontinental.

[Nelphine]

I'd start with +120/+30, and see where that leaves them. They are relatively weak in late game for actual power stacks. They've very good for swamping things, but not for, say, conquering fortresses.

[Artorius]

I'm new to MoM/CoM but I'll offer up a few options: 

• A) Forbid buildings Amplifying Towers and/or Colosseums
  
• B) -1 Unit Resistance (instead of Normal)
  
• C) Remove cheaper Settler perk (it still has water walking)
  
• D) +1 Racial Unrest from Barbarians, Halflings, High Elves
  

[Seravy]

I'd start with +120/+30, and see where that leaves them.  They are relatively weak in late game for actual power stacks.  They've very good for swamping things, but not for, say, conquering fortresses.

This only holds for the human players. In strategic combat they are one of the best due to high health per figure. My greatest concern is AI dominating games with this race way too often which reduces variety and makes games boring, especially because they are weak in normal combat. Not sure if it is a real problem though, the AI will spread other races if they get them, so they won't be stuck with lizardmen only. They will have tons of Lizardmen units anyway so maybe it is.

[Nelphine]

Right hadn't clicked AI vs AI is a main point of the problem.

I'd agree with returning settlers to normal price. And I'd agree with giving other races more unrest but I don't think that actually helps the problem.

what about leaving settlers at reduced price and increasing price of all military units? Leave them with the strength they have, and make them weaker at what I'd actually the problem - swarms of early game units?

[zitro1987]

I propose removing the +1 defense normal unit bonus and reducing 1 armor to javalineers and dragon turtles. This way, lizardmen gets slightly less good on all stages of the game.

EDIT: Oops, I just noticed you made a decision in a patch 2.92a reducing pop growth by 30/turn. That works too.

[GermanJoey]

IMHO the pop growth reduction is good, plus drop settlers down to 1 move/turn to slow down their rapid (rabid?) expansion. There's really no reason they need to have that. If they're still too good, knock a resistance off Dragon Turtles so they're a little less tedious to deal with.

[Seravy]

There's really no reason they need to have that.

They do. The reason is, to be able to take advantage of reaching far away continents other players haven't colonized yet. There is no point being able to move on water if it takes 30+ turns for the settler to arrive only to find the spot already taken by someone who had to use ships but said ships move 3 tiles a turn so they arrived first anyway.

I propose removing the +1 defense normal unit bonus

Ohh they even had that, thanks for pointing it out. Yes, this definitely has to go, extra health AND defense is just way too much on the same race. Especially as the two multiplies each other in the defense rating of a unit. I'm keeping it on Dragon turtles (the entire point of that unit is high armor) but all others will lose it.

[Nelphine]

Ugh, with the other military weaknesses they have, I really enjoyed the +1 armor and health on the same unit. That's why I suggested making their units more expensive instead. Without top tier units they need some kind of answer (besides just dragon turtles being hard to hurt).

It also makes everything obsolete once they have javelineers whereas right now halberdiers are distinct from them.

[Seravy]

It also makes everything obsolete once they have javelineers whereas right now halberdiers are distinct from them.

I fail to see how reducing the armor on all including Javelineers by 1 can do that. Their relative strength remains the same. Also, for late game, Dragon turtles will stay unchanged.

Without top tier units they need some kind of answer (besides just dragon turtles being hard to hurt).

If the turtles don't work, you have a huge lizard empire producing enough gold to buy a paladin or better every turn in the single nonlizard city you have - if you haven't conquered at least one city by that point you deserve to lose, rush races are supposed to conquer, if not from another wizard, at least a neutral or two. You also have lots of amplifying towers, wizards guilds and cathedrals to fill in the gap with fantastic creatures. Furthermore, you can sink enemy transports in sea, so you can avoid fighting most of their stronger units directly. You can also buff your units, spells like Doom Mastery and Holy Arms works wonders with a race like this. You can also take the city curse, the armageddon or the spell of mastery route instead of attacking, if you got a large empire early, those should all be viable.