Objection! [SPOILERS]

[El Grillo]

[El Grillo]

I'm looking forward to this rematch with Khan, and to facing off against Jowy and greenline. I fully expect this game to be buried under Civ6 release hype, but I still plan to report, with my Chinese friend from last game returning to help play the turns and sanity check my ideas. The naming theme will draw from the Ace Attorney series, but I'll try to keep things spoiler-free.

I have some thoughts about the other players, and I'll write them up later this week, but for the most part I'll be waiting for a starting screenshot and the leader/civ options. I don't expect to win this game, but I do want to adopt some more good habits and practice longer-term planning. As always, any questions and comments are welcome.

[El Grillo]

Thoughts on the other players:

Khan: Unfortunately, Khan didn't post any screenshots, and reported infrequently, but he navigated an impressive comeback after suffering a series of early setbacks, including missing two wonders, fighting multiple early wars, and having a city razed and worker captured. Considering he built an economy to compete with my Pyramids caste/rep and Adrien's TGL/Colossus combos and was a dice roll away from landing Mausoleum -> Taj, I have Khan pegged as the most dangerous player in our game.

That said, I think we both realized how the game was going to shake out and mutually demilitarized our borders to overwhelm Adrien and ginger to prompt the early concession. Contrast this to the uncertainty lingering between Jowy and greenline, which prolonged the game an age and a half. This final game will only have one winner, so I doubt a similar arrangement would be profitable, but I think Khan will play a solid, focused, reasonable game. If I leave him an opening, whether militarily or for a first-to-bonus or wonder, I fully expect him to exploit it.

Jowy: Jowy and I played the same, northeastern position, albeit with different combos and different strategic approaches. Jowy grew tall with an early Academy and settled loosely with lots of cottages, while I crammed cities in and favored workshops. I think Jowy had several windows where he had a significant tech lead and could've made large gains at the expense of greenline/pickle, but lacked the production base to quickly build the newest units. Later on, he had the opportunity to strike two neighbors who were already taking losses in Dreylin's land, but refrained. This lack of boldness reminds me of Adrien's attack on ginger, which took way too long to get going and ended up grinding into longbows behind un-bombarded walls. If Jowy is slow to settle and doesn't respond decisively to world events, I would feel comfortable outbuilding and eventually outfighting him.

greenline: I have the least familiarity with greenline's play, since he occupied the other start in the other game. His edited screenshots are hilarious to follow, but he cropped out a lot of data in the process, so I didn't get a great grasp of his early and midgame development. That said, greenline read as very committed throughout, and on t100 had 14 cities with 131 pop to my 18 cities with 167 pop (14 cities and 135 pop for Jowy, no data for Khan). His attack on Sian felt timely and would have been effective (if not for Sian dropping to be replaced by Dreylin funded by Jowy :S), and I suppose he gave Jowy enough pause to lock in the 2nd place finish. I think he could've placed first if the wars had broken out earlier and in a different order, so I expect a good game from him.

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

Picks to follow

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

Note the fish 1S

Pick list

We do reserve the right to remove picks should there be a consensus form. Duplicates will be assigned at random, please give me at least 2.

Map is as asked for, random, equalised starts, everyone should have a fair chance although significant differences in nature. Some wonder resources available, but not early. Noble tool thinks it is very equal. It is less lush than usual by RB standards. Made by throwing a normal torus, beefing caps and sinking land to make equal. Because BTS toro will be played on Noble. Does have the random improvements. No barbs again.

Standard rules - no GLH, no blockades, no spies, no being a jerk. Probably no war eles unless everyone wants them.

Wang Kong Pro/fin of Spain myst/fish
Mehmed Exp/org of Natives fish/agri
Monty agg/spi of England fish/min
qin pro/ind of India myst/min
Ghandi phi/spi of Dutch agri/fish
Ragnar agg/fin of arabia Myst/wheel
Brennus spi/cham of Celtica myst/hunt
washington chm/exp of Greece fish/hunt
Juils Imp/org of Carthage fish/min
Hasi cre/spi of byzantium myst/wheel
Tokugawa agg/pro of Inca agri/myst
Suliman phi/imp of Maya myst/min
Louis cre/ind of Portugal min/fish
Kubli agg/cre of eithiopia

[El Grillo]

Thanks again for the map, REM! I'll try to not overthink things and make a fool of myself again:

Givens:
- The capitals are not mirrored
- There will be water (torusworld, mentioning land being sunk, my starting screenshot)
- Quick speed, toroidal maintenance, normal difficulty, no barbs
- Less lush than RB average (bearing in mind 74AB was more lush than average)

Our start:
- 6 forests
- 4 potential riverside grassland cottages
- 4 non-resource hills
- 6/0 corn, 5/1 pig, 5/0/2 fish as power tiles, corn and pig should be easily shared
- 3 non-resource coast

I'll rule out SPI and ORG since I played them last game, leaving:

Wang Kong of Spain - PRO/FIN, Mysticism/Fishing, Conquistador, Citadel
Qin Shi Huang of India -  PRO/IND, Mysticism/Mining, Fast Worker, Mausoleum
Ragnar of Arabia - AGG/FIN, Mysticism/Wheel, Camel Archer, Madrassa
Washington of Greece - CHM/EXP, Fishing/Hunting, Phalanx, Odeon
Tokugawa of Inca - AGG/PRO, Agriculture/Mysticism, Quechua, Terrace
Suleiman of Maya - PHI/IMP, Mysticism/Mining, Holkan, Ball Court
Louis of Portugal - CRE/IND, Mining/Fishing, Carrack, Feitoria
Kublai of Ethiopia - AGG/CRE, Hunting/Mining, Oromo Warrior, Stele

All of these combinations have some issues with the opening, but on Noble/Quick, the tech speed should be fast enough to manage the Mysticism civs. I want to play FIN on these settings (less lush and more coast), and with luck, my opponents (who all played FIN leaders last game) will look elsewhere. Worker actions will be messy with all the rough terrain, but playing India with half a trait total sounds kind of bleak, and I'd rather not subject myself to that. Ditto for Tokugawa of Inca.

Of the two FIN leaders, I prefer AGG over PRO, I feel Camel Archers to be underrated, and Madrasas are commonly built and allow for a super-early Great Person, while Citadels just don't exist for very long before going obsolete. While the starting techs won't be super relevant, The Wheel is more expensive than Fishing.

I'll be testing the following picks to make sure the openings aren't too horrendous:

Ragnar of Arabia
Wang Kon of Spain
Hatshepsut of Byzantines - If both FIN leaders are picked somehow, I'll beeline phracts and ruin their day

[El Grillo]

Sandbox findings:

Tech costs:
- Fishing: 34b, 4t
- Wheel: 52b, 6t
- Agriculture - 52b, 6t
- Hunting: 34b, 4t
- Mining: 43b, 5t
- BW: 104b
- AH: 87b

Ragnar of Arabia:
- worker -> warrior -> size 2 -> settler
- tech agriculture -> AH -> mining -> BW
- farms corn on t12, pastures pig on t17, wastes 3 worker turns moving, has 9t to road to and improve second city before BW
- settler on t20
- t25: Mecca size 3, second city settled t22 or t23, two workers, 1 and 9/10 warriors, 1t from BW

Plan would be to tech Pottery, get cottages on the two bare river grass and the dye (made a mistake previously, there are only 3 possible river grass cottages), then split the food and whip the capital 4->2. This would change if the nearby food is seafood, or there are early luxuries available.

Wang Kong of Spain:
- workboat using 1/2, worker, warrior, settler, warrior, worker
- tech agriculture -> AH -> mining -> BW t21,
- net fish t5, farm corn t15, pasture pig t20, chop t24
- settler t22
- swap slavery t22
- t25: Madrid size 4, second city settled t24 or t25, 1 and 34/40 worker, 2 warriors, 1t from wheel

Plan would be to 2-pop whip a worker and overflow into a settler, then segue into the cottage + whip cycle plan. I have to say this feels stronger, getting a FIN tile online on t5 really helps to fill in the missing techs, and opens up the decent 2/0/3 lake immediately in case worker turns are tight.

As for the AGG/PRO and Arabia/Spain tradeoff, upon reflection it's a bit of a wash, but I actually think there could be some synergy with PRO Citadels. This combo could also make a play for Oracle with mysticism and early commerce to make getting a religion less painful, and two questionable IND civs available.

I'll maybe play around with one or two other combos, but for now, my order is:

1) Wang Kong of Spain
2) Ragnar of Arabia
3) Hatshepsut of Byzantines

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

Sandbox findings:

Tech costs:
- Fishing: 34b, 4t
- Wheel: 52b, 6t
- Agriculture - 52b, 6t
- Hunting: 34b, 4t
- Mining: 43b, 5t
- BW: 104b
- AH: 87b

Ragnar of Arabia:
- worker -> warrior -> size 2 -> settler
- tech agriculture -> AH -> mining -> BW
- farms corn on t12, pastures pig on t17, wastes 3 worker turns moving, has 9t to road to and improve second city before BW
- settler on t20
- t25: Mecca size 3, second city settled t22 or t23, two workers, 1 and 9/10 warriors, 1t from BW

Plan would be to tech Pottery, get cottages on the two bare river grass and the dye (made a mistake previously, there are only 3 possible river grass cottages), then split the food and whip the capital 4->2. This would change if the nearby food is seafood, or there are early luxuries available.

Wang Kong of Spain:
- workboat using 1/2, worker, warrior, settler, warrior, worker
- tech agriculture -> AH -> mining -> BW t21,
- net fish t5, farm corn t15, pasture pig t20, chop t24
- settler t22
- swap slavery t22
- t25: Madrid size 4, second city settled t24 or t25, 1 and 34/40 worker, 2 warriors, 1t from wheel

Plan would be to 2-pop whip a worker and overflow into a settler, then segue into the cottage + whip cycle plan. I have to say this feels stronger, getting a FIN tile online on t5 really helps to fill in the missing techs, and opens up the decent 2/0/3 lake immediately in case worker turns are tight.

As for the AGG/PRO and Arabia/Spain tradeoff, upon reflection it's a bit of a wash, but I actually think there could be some synergy with PRO Citadels. This combo could also make a play for Oracle with mysticism and early commerce to make getting a religion less painful, and two questionable IND civs available.

I'll maybe play around with one or two other combos, but for now, my order is:

1) Wang Kong of Spain
2) Ragnar of Arabia
3) Hatshepsut of Byzantines

I did want to actually try to make the citidels into play here. I have never really used them - with econ does the xp boost expire?

[El Grillo]

Unfortunately, only the defense boost remains after Economics. I think there's a window where someone could stockpile CR3 trebs or cannons, but with 2-movers dominating combat, they just get flanked away anyways

[El Grillo]

I did an alternate sandbox with Ragnar teching Fishing while building a Warrior first. This is awfully speculative, but I think getting a warrior out to pillage irrelevant preplaced improvements for gold in addition to more scouting info could be viable. It may be the slowest to a second city, but it could be better positioned to settle the 4th and 5th.

It hooks the fish on t9, finishes the worker on t14, second warrior t17, gets the settler out on t23, finishes BW on t25, and has 1 and 36/40 of a worker. There are only 2 free turns to road and they wouldn't help speed the settler up, but it does have 3 improved tiles and overall seems good enough that I feel comfortable playing the start if someone else gets Wang Kong.