Does this add a worthwhile strategy to research?

[Reformations]

Hi all. 

What are your thoughts on adding this mechanic to MoO1 research?

"Available research topics that are x levels below the player's tech level in that field are automatically researched for free. This can happen k times."

Examples are x=20 and k=5. But of course these can vary per race and field for balance reasons. 

This looks like free RP?  Where is the strategy? 

Consider the 2 different extremes: always research highest available option vs always go for lowest. Do this until level 30ish. 

The rush for high level options will very quickly use the k freebies and add k to the field level (one for each discovered tech) as fast as possible.

The slow approach will push the k freebies to higher available techs and ultimately getting a much bigger bang for the buck.  

Of course somewhere in between is where I would like players to end up. 

This a worthwhile mechanic worth exploring?

[Ianus]

To me this just raises confusion. Since in most games the number of available techs that I skip on my way up the ladder is more than K (normally 5-10 per field, particularly in weapons) it seems unlikely that I would be able to "conserve K" until a higher level. Also will I be able to choose to spend some K or will it happen automatically?  I skipped researching ECM1 for a reason.
As you point out yourself this mechanic is just ASKING to be exploited, and is just a way to provide the player with free techs. While there are definitely times when going back for a skipped tech is worthwhile (Fusion Bombs) getting there for free just seems cheap. Maybe instead implement discounted tech costs a la Civ4?  But how does that jive with MoO's variable tech tree?  I say if it ain't broke don't fix it. As others have pointed out adding complexity for the sake of complexity isn't better or worse, it's just more complex.

[Reformations]

As you point out yourself this mechanic is just ASKING to be exploited, and is just a way to provide the player with free techs. While there are definitely times when going back for a skipped tech is worthwhile (Fusion Bombs) getting there for free just seems cheap.

Weapons are the first one to come to everybody's mind (myself included) and I was originally thinking of a way to spice up the Mrrshan by giving them lower level techs for "free" as they advanced beyond the earlier options.  Helping clear out the backlog.

The main advantage of these freebie techs is advancing the weapons level with the +1 per researched area.  There are exceptions as you pointed out with bombs but for the most part I fully expect these old techs to not actually be used when they are eventually granted for free.  I then realized there was an interesting interaction between *when* the player decides to pop the freebie techs.

Completely agree about not wanting complexity for complexity sake and it may well be that this type of mechanic doesn't work across races and fields.  Maybe for very specific combinations though.

And yes, conserving 'k' is quite different than the playstyle we are used to (leaving plenty of lower level projects left unresearched).  


Maybe I need to post a gameplay challenge where research must be done from lowest to highest --no exceptions?

[Psillycyber]

It can sometimes already be worth backtracking for tech levels alone. Backtracking gets you 1 tech level. Going forward to the next rung will get you 5 tech levels on average. So, if you have backlog techs that are much, much less than 1/5th the RP cost of the next-rung tech, then it can be faster to boost your tech levels by backtracking than by going forward. Plus, add in any specific benefits that the backlog tech might have.

There are also plenty of other ways to fill in backlog techs: spying, trading, conquest. I don't think another mechanic is needed. Your proposed mechanic would just remove research choices and simplify things by giving the player backlog techs for free. As it is now, the player has to think about how he is going to obtain those backlog techs (self-research, trading, spying, conquest), or whether it is worth worrying about them at all. I like the current way.

[Ray F]

As you point out yourself this mechanic is just ASKING to be exploited, and is just a way to provide the player with free techs. While there are definitely times when going back for a skipped tech is worthwhile (Fusion Bombs) getting there for free just seems cheap.

Weapons are the first one to come to everybody's mind (myself included) and I was originally thinking of a way to spice up the Mrrshan by giving them lower level techs for "free" as they advanced beyond the earlier options.  Helping clear out the backlog.

Lots of techs in MOO1 "obsolete" earlier techs in the ladder. Researching Range 5 in propulsion, for example, means you can ignore the Range 4 technology.

Weapons are much the same way. You might skip a lower level beam weapon to get a Hand Weapon, and then you no longer need that beam weapon when you then research a better weapon. What is the impetus for going back and picking up old techs beyond clearing out the backlog? Would getting a free tech count towards the overall tech level and improve miniaturization?

With regards to the Mrrshan's perceived weakness as a race, one could propose for example that Mrrshan ships with beam weapons always get first initiative in ship combat (exempting specials like Cloaking & Teleporters)... it's the combination of those cat-like reflexes and the light-speed of the beams.

Not only would something like that make them a lot more viable, but it also plays right into their lore of being beam weapon specialists. That's an important consideration to me. Obviously, anyone playing a Mrrshan would put beam weapons on every ship! Would that even make them too powerful?

Giving out free techs seems like an improvement for a race like the Psilons, but they are already powerful enough.

[Tiltowait]

I thought one of the founding principles of MoO is that you never get all the techs. You'll get some every game and how they're structured can greatly affect your gameplay. Giving techs for free will just fill in the gaps in the tree easier. It'll also remove what your soldiers can find in captured factories, the event that gives you a tech advance, and espionage. This sounds like a solution searching for a problem.

[Reformations]

Giving techs for free will just fill in the gaps in the tree easier. 

The techs would be granted from the ones available on the research tree already.  It would be stupid strong to fill in all research options.  That would also not allow the player to choose when the extra tech levels kick in by progressing slowly up the tree.

[Reformations]

@ Ray, yes the point of the backfilling is to increase the tech level of that field for cost/size/production/spying bonuses that are tied to tech levels.
-----------

I'm just imagining looking at a tech screen trying to choose my next project.  When I highlight Megabolt Cannon (level 25) the game informs me that Hyper V rockets (level 4) would also be completed (this is because they differ by 20 levels).  So for spending 25^2 RP on Megabolt I would be getting a "free" 4^2 RP from the Hyper V and that would be using one of my 5 "freebies".  In this case, I would likely go back and research hyper V the old fashioned way before proceeding on to Megabolt.


After Megabolt I have the option to push for tachyon (level 30).  However, when hovering over tachyon I'm informed that BOTH Anti-Missile rockets and Fusion Bomb (levels 6 and 9) would also be 'popped' (because they are 20 less than tachyon).  Using 2 of the 5 freebies.  Hmmm....  Maybe tachyon can wait?  I research anti missile rockets the old fashioned way.  After that I decide I really want a new beam weapon and research tachyon.  Upon completion of tachyon I see research screens for both tachyon beam and fusion bombs.  I have gained the bombs for 'free' but have used one of the 5 charges.  


Many turns later I see scatter pack X missiles (level 44) at the far end of my available ladder.  I still have 4 'freebies' to pop and hovering over scatter packs I'm informed that Ion Rifle, Hard Beam, Stinger Missiles, and Omega V bomb would all be "popped" from my list by taking this deep dive for scatter packs.  This would consume all of the freebies but would also give me +4 weapons tech level above and beyond the levels gained by researching a level 44 tech.  I decide to pull the trigger spend all of my remaining research bonus for a spike in weapons tech.  A more conservative option may have been to hand research the lowest 2 techs and then still have 2 more freebies after scatter packs.

-------------------
The more a player stalls the high-end projects (by manually researching the low ones) the better the bonus will be down the road.  I'm not saying this is the perfect implementation of that concept but I like to consider how that can be done.  
-------------



This also heavily influences early game spying/stealing  Of course I don't care about stealing hard beam when my basic beam weapon is already a few levels higher.  However, if that hard beam was one of the options on my research list, I effectively just bumped up another level in 'freebies' down the line.  This motivates the player to clear out his backlog by alternative means.




--------------------------------------------------
As for the Mrshan bonuses, I feel like they need some love outside of the combat screen.
I'm curious what this community thinks of basing their population productivity coefficient on WEAPONS level instead of PLANETOLOGY level.

[Slawek_D]

Hi,

IMHO the mechanics of free technologies is a solution to a problem which is only minor, if any. Typically when you already have the high level techs, you either do not need the low level ones anymore, or they are very cheap for you to research, or you get them anyway sometime by ground combat. If the player needs a tech, I think he should get it with one of the already available means and not have to calculate how to get a free gift.

--------------

As to Mrshans, my usual tech strategy with them is to mainly research weapons and computers (as they help the beam weapons), use the computer bonus to spy on the other races, and research the rest through ground combat. You don't need to produce things yourself if it is easy for you to steal them from the neighbor I think the AI does a poor job in playing the Mrshans, and this influences the general perception of them as a weak race. A human player Mrshan can afford to ignore the economy, as long as the other races have weaker military - somehow similar to the current situation of Russia However the AI is poor at advanced war strategies, and cannot exploit the military advantage properly.

With that in mind, I would propose to strengthen the Mrshans by making them Good in computer research. This would however benefit rather the human player than the Mrshan AI.
Other options for helping both the human and the AI could be:
- a small (e.g. +10) ground combat bonus (to keep the military theme)
- Good in planetology or in propulsion research (to help productivity/expansion)

[Reformations]

Sorry to stay on topic of Mrrshan.

What about translating their "uncanny accuracy" skills to more accurate planetary bombardment attacks? In planetary bombardment mode a colonist is killed by mrrshan bombers for every 200 points of damage (instead of regular 400). This means their eventual ground troops will have an easier fight with more factories still around to loot/refit. (A factory is destroyed for every 100). This buff has a similar theme to bio-weapons but without the racial hate (mrrshan have enough of that already...) or special equipment.


Outside of a quick race to range ~4-5 does propulsion help with expansion? (maybe I'm biased due to playing small maps).

I'm extremely interested in how tying population productivity to WEAPONS tech level instead of planetology tech level would play out. Can a race truly focus on a single area and compete?