[SPOILERS] Suboptimal's Arabian Adventure

[suboptimal]

Alrighty then...I have no multiplayer experience and joined a PBEM. I’ve also never played as any of the civs I’ve been rolled. This should be interesting, to say the least.

Once upon a time (Civ 3 days) I lurked around here under the handle notoptimal and even played in a couple of the adventures. I picked up Civ 4 and played regularly for quite a while, though never did play in any of the events here. Dabbled with 5 and then got back into things with 6. Generally I’ve played on Prince difficulty across all of the versions, usually as a builder and working towards a non-domination victory. I don’t see that happening here.

I’ve been rolled Egypt/Cleopatra, Arabia/Saladin and Greece/Gorgo. Hmmm...

Greece/Gorgo

The wildcard slot and hoplite provide early benefits with military and flexibility (though the hoplite appears to be bugged), with the Acropolis and Theromopylae providing sources of culture. We’ve also seen this in action in PBEM 2, and for that reason I’m inclined to leave Gorgo to Oledavy. I'd also be concerned that in putting up a turn report I'd say something spoilerish in reference to that game....  

Egypt/Cleopatra

The Maryannu Chariot Archer looks like a powerful unit at first glance. The extra movement, ranged attack, lack of a resource requirement and better melee strength seem to be quite potent. It is also a cheap upgrade into crossbows. However, I don’t see how in an MP situation it would make sense to spend 140 ancient-era hammers cogs into one unit when that’s almost three archers. Perhaps later in the classical era while waiting for crossbows to come in.

The sphinx is an interesting improvement in that it can act as a source of culture and faith. With an early builder putting out a few it’s more cog-efficient than building monuments (2/3 of a builder gets you a virtual monument + 2 faith per turn). However, would those charges be better put elsewhere in the early game?

The district bonus is very intriguing - “built 15% faster if placed next to a river”. What I don’t yet know is if this is done as a production discount or as a bonus to production while building the district (and thus subject to overflow). 

Cleopatra’s bonus to trade routes (+4 gold to Egypt on international routes, +2 gold to Egypt on routes from other civs) could make for a strong economic engine, provided that any surrounding city-states can be kept alive and independent and commercial districts can be built in good time. I don’t see other players allowing traders into their territory for very long.


Arabia/Saladin

Woden provided a good analysis of this combination in his pre-game discussion for PBEM 2. There are good religion/science synergies along with a reasonably powerful medieval unit in the Mamluk. It’d be a defensive game to start with some cogs going into a holy district to grab a religion, then trying to build up the science and culture lead from there.
Religion could play an important part once the medieval era is reached, though I'm skeptical a religious victory is a feasible option in MP.

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I’m leaning towards Arabia/Saladin as it appeals to my inner builder and (thanks to Woden) have formative ideas about a strategy, but want to give both Arabia and Egypt a go in single player just to test drive them.

[oledavy]

Welcome to the site! 

I can say from PBEM2 Gorgo is a ton of fun, and the culture is great   

I understand that you would want to try something new, and for what it's worth, I was secretly hoping for Egypt as a pick option in PBEM 2. I think you can't really go wrong with any of these three though. 

Happy test driving!

[RFS-81]

Hi suboptimal, I'll be dedlurking you then. I hope you enjoyed your honeymoon!

Some comments on your civilizations...

Greece/Gorgo

The wildcard slot and hoplite provide early benefits with military and flexibility (though the hoplite appears to be bugged), with the Acropolis and Theromopylae providing sources of culture. We’ve also seen this in action in PBEM 2, and for that reason I’m inclined to leave Gorgo to Oledavy. I'd also be concerned that in putting up a turn report I'd say something spoilerish in reference to that game....  

Nothing to add here. I'm glad that you want to try something we haven't seen before!

Egypt/Cleopatra

The Maryannu Chariot Archer looks like a powerful unit at first glance. The extra movement, ranged attack, lack of a resource requirement and better melee strength seem to be quite potent. It is also a cheap upgrade into crossbows. However, I don’t see how in an MP situation it would make sense to spend 140 ancient-era hammers cogs into one unit when that’s almost three archers. Perhaps later in the classical era while waiting for crossbows to come in.

Note that it replaces the Heavy Chariot which doesn't require any resources anyway.

The sphinx is an interesting improvement in that it can act as a source of culture and faith. With an early builder putting out a few it’s more cog-efficient than building monuments (2/3 of a builder gets you a virtual monument + 2 faith per turn). However, would those charges be better put elsewhere in the early game?

The Sphinx doesn't sound that great to me. I first thought that it would allow you to get a pantheon without the God King policy, and that would be a big early production bonus in disguise. Then I noticed that you need Craftsmanship to build it. And in order to get the Inspiration for that, you'll need to expend all charges of your first worker, so you probably won't be able to build a Sphinx before your second worker. I really like the concept of unique tile improvements, because they could make every civilization's territory look unique, but most of them are just too weak. One exception is the Ziggurat, because clearly, Sumeria also needs an early science bonus!

The district bonus is very intriguing - “built 15% faster if placed next to a river”. What I don’t yet know is if this is done as a production discount or as a bonus to production while building the district (and thus subject to overflow).

Hm, the trouble is that you'll often have to choose between getting this bonus, or better adjacency bonuses for your districts. The one exception here are the commercial hubs. Building those faster than other civs seems pretty good!

Cleopatra’s bonus to trade routes (+4 gold to Egypt on international routes, +2 gold to Egypt on routes from other civs) could make for a strong economic engine, provided that any surrounding city-states can be kept alive and independent and commercial districts can be built in good time. I don’t see other players allowing traders into their territory for very long.

Nice to have, but I usually run many domestic trade routes to boost production.

Arabia/Saladin

Woden provided a good analysis of this combination in his pre-game discussion for PBEM 2. There are good religion/science synergies along with a reasonably powerful medieval unit in the Mamluk. It’d be a defensive game to start with some cogs going into a holy district to grab a religion, then trying to build up the science and culture lead from there.
Religion could play an important part once the medieval era is reached, though I'm skeptical a religious victory is a feasible option in MP.

This would probably also be my choice, one of the few civs with science bonuses. Getting a university replacement upon researching Theology is great! The plan is to pull ahead in tech, and then pray for an army of Mamluks, right? I agree that a religious victory seems impossible. What's stopping an opponent from declaring war and murdering your missionaries? If you send along an armed escort, you might as well attack them directly.

[suboptimal]

Hi suboptimal, I'll be dedlurking you then. I hope you enjoyed your honeymoon!

Great to have you aboard!  My honeymoon was fantastic - spent a week at a resort in St. Lucia unwinding.

The Maryannu Chariot Archer looks like a powerful unit at first glance. The extra movement, ranged attack, lack of a resource requirement and better melee strength seem to be quite potent. It is also a cheap upgrade into crossbows. However, I don’t see how in an MP situation it would make sense to spend 140 ancient-era hammers cogs into one unit when that’s almost three archers. Perhaps later in the classical era while waiting for crossbows to come in.

Note that it replaces the Heavy Chariot which doesn't require any resources anyway.

It does, but at double the production cost.  This unit makes more sense to me as "crossbow light".  I took a quick look in the unit XML file and it shows that it obsoletes with Ballistics.  I'm not sure, though, if this entry means it can be built even after crossbows are available.  Something for the test drive, perhaps...

Cleopatra’s bonus to trade routes (+4 gold to Egypt on international routes, +2 gold to Egypt on routes from other civs) could make for a strong economic engine, provided that any surrounding city-states can be kept alive and independent and commercial districts can be built in good time. I don’t see other players allowing traders into their territory for very long.

Nice to have, but I usually run many domestic trade routes to boost production.

It may be my SP/builder tendencies but I tend to run trade routes externally once the cities are up and running, mainly for the gold.  In MP it's most likely a different situation; however, if there's a commercial city-state within walking distance that could be valuable in keeping an economy going.

My biggest issue with Egypt is that while all of the special abilities/units are "Egyptian" in theme they do not have any sort of strategic cohesion that I can tease out of them.  This is in contrast to Arabia, where everything leads towards a common goal.

Arabia/Saladin

Woden provided a good analysis of this combination in his pre-game discussion for PBEM 2. There are good religion/science synergies along with a reasonably powerful medieval unit in the Mamluk. It’d be a defensive game to start with some cogs going into a holy district to grab a religion, then trying to build up the science and culture lead from there.
Religion could play an important part once the medieval era is reached, though I'm skeptical a religious victory is a feasible option in MP.

This would probably also be my choice, one of the few civs with science bonuses. Getting a university replacement upon researching Theology is great! The plan is to pull ahead in tech, and then pray for an army of Mamluks, right? I agree that a religious victory seems impossible. What's stopping an opponent from declaring war and murdering your missionaries? If you send along an armed escort, you might as well attack them directly. 

This is pretty much the formative plan.  I think that Mamluks coupled with Siege Engines (or Battering Rams) could wreak serious havoc.  One thing that I've seen conflicting information on is the upgrade path.  I've seen/read that unique units cannot be upgraded into, but on the other hand I've seen it stated that Heavy Chariots (which upgrade into Knights) can be upgraded to Mamluks.  This will need to be checked as well.  If this does turn out to be the case I think that producing a bunch of them just prior to stirrups coming in would be preferable to using them as regular army during the ancient and classical eras.  I'm going to ponder some more and put up a more in-depth post about my thinking.  Arabia, however, looks better the more I think about it.

[RFS-81]

One thing that I've seen conflicting information on is the upgrade path.  I've seen/read that unique units cannot be upgraded into, but on the other hand I've seen it stated that Heavy Chariots (which upgrade into Knights) can be upgraded to Mamluks.  This will need to be checked as well.  If this does turn out to be the case I think that producing a bunch of them just prior to stirrups coming in would be preferable to using them as regular army during the ancient and classical eras.  I'm going to ponder some more and put up a more in-depth post about my thinking.  Arabia, however, looks better the more I think about it.

I don't know if there are some exceptions, but in general, you can upgrade into unique units. E.g., you definitely can upgrade warriors into legions as Rome, and legions into muskets. Of course it's better to make sure in a test game, but I don't see why this pattern shouldn't hold for chariots/mamluks.

[Woden]

One thing that I've seen conflicting information on is the upgrade path.  I've seen/read that unique units cannot be upgraded into, but on the other hand I've seen it stated that Heavy Chariots (which upgrade into Knights) can be upgraded to Mamluks.  This will need to be checked as well.  If this does turn out to be the case I think that producing a bunch of them just prior to stirrups coming in would be preferable to using them as regular army during the ancient and classical eras.  I'm going to ponder some more and put up a more in-depth post about my thinking.  Arabia, however, looks better the more I think about it.

I don't know if there are some exceptions, but in general, you can upgrade into unique units. E.g., you definitely can upgrade warriors into legions as Rome, and legions into muskets. Of course it's better to make sure in a test game, but I don't see why this pattern shouldn't hold for chariots/mamluks.

AFAIK, you can upgrade into a unique unit if it is a replacement for another unit that can be upgraded into, e.g. warriors to Legions because they replace swordsman. Something that is not a replacement can't be upgraded into, e.g. China's crouching tigers since crossbowman are still available. Mamluk are a replacement for knights, so they should upgrade from chariots.

[Woden]

Welcome to MP and congratulations! PBEM2 is my 1st experience playing against humans and I am finding the turn pace with a PBEM fascinating. It allows you to really think about your moves instead of just clicking through the game.

I am super excited at the possibility of seeing Arabia in a MP game. I had a really hard time choosing between them and China. I almost deleted my Arabia strategy from the thread in case I was going to play another PBEM and had the chance to pick them. I would hate to give away all my secrets but now I am glad I didn't. I think Arabia can be really powerful with the the synergy between religion and science. I do agree that the possibility of a religious victory could be hard but you could always use you religion to get ahead in other areas. Good luck!

[suboptimal]

After recovering from my laptop crash and pondering things some more I remain unable to come up with anything that uses Egypt's various abilities in a cohesive fashion. I'll leave that to someone else in PBEM 4. Sulla, if you're reading this Arabia is my pick, please give a quick response to register it. If I don't see anything in a couple of days I'll PM you my choice.

On that, time to babble on a bit about things I think I know...references to PBEM 2 are in the spoiler, you've been warned.    

Religion

Arabia is well suited for a religious strategy, given the various abilities and bonuses. In an SP game Saladin's auto-prophet is helpful for founding a religion but in MP I'd most likely have to get a Great Prophet the old-fashioned way as religion isn't a priority. Religion & faith seem to be an all-in prospect – faith won't be that useful unless you set out to generate faith like you would gold. One or two holy sites with a smattering of buildings won't get the job done. If I can play it right, faith will be my second source of gold, first for buildings and, if I make it to Theocracy, units.

Regarding religion I'd be leaning towards the faith-based options for the pantheon. I think the better choices are the ones that provide adjacency bonuses for holy sites rather than the ones that are resource or event-based (e.g. Goddess of the Harvest, God of War). Later on, unless someone else also pursues a religion I should have relatively good pickings among the beliefs. Meeting Houses (or Wats) would be the choice, along with either Jesuit Education or Religious Community. Founder beliefs I'll worry about if/when I get an apostle, but Defender of the Faith, Lay Ministry or Papal Primacy would be the preferences.

Woden speculated about the possibility of a religious victory using Arabia. I think that it would be a possibility, but only after a successful turtling and as an ancillary to a military war. Alternatively, converting city-states to apply pressure might also work, though I don't know how effective religious pressure is in converting other cities. Something else to look at.

I don't see much competition for a religion and the various beliefs; in fact, I see the larger task trying to devote cogs to holy site production while maintaining competitive rates in other areas. I think the strategy here would be to get a holy site at the capital, focus on military, economy and research early and then get holy sites up quickly when any back lines get filled.

Military

Early on, I don't know that building heavy chariots for future upgrading to mamluks is a good idea. The upgrade is expensive (180 gold) and other than archer hunting they aren't much good for anything once swords and horsemen are on the field. That money might be better spent upgrading archers to crossbows. Mamluks cost 180 cogs to build, so slow-building them might be a significant opportunity cost. Sounds like something to play with in the sandbox over the weekend.


One idea would be to put production into heavy chariots if there's no immediate need for something else, with the intent of having the upgrade happen “in the queue” and needing only 120 or so cogs to complete the mamluks. Of course, in MP are there really any cogs that aren't “immediately needed”?  

In his pre-game discussion Oledavy pondered the use of encampments to build an effective defensive front. Sulla, at the time, was skeptical of this idea. Personally, I think the jury is still out. Oledavy got jumped 2-on-1 early, which interrupted that plan and he hasn't been able to get an encampment completed in Lafayette to help secure that front and without capturing Seoul his eastern flank is wide open. Depending on circumstances I may attempt to try this out, although I do think that Japan/Hojo is civ to pull this off with.

I'll also put this thought here instead of outside the spoiler. If the map is as movement constricted as PBEM 2's northern half is (hills & chokepoints) and/or we play a wet map that really slows movement down I would give very serious consideration to an amphibious assault in the "wrong" direction (and perhaps a few navy pickets to guard against one). If things on Oledavy's end settle down and he can climb back to a comfortable top position I wonder if that's something he'd consider against Woden (or vice versa).

City States

It seems that a common strategy to do is to take a city-state or two early to get a jump on advancement and get some military promotions. If there's an industrial city-state nearby then I think it will meet its fate. I think the other types all have merit in the early game. While religious city-states's suzerain bonuses are centered around religious victory, I'd prefer to keep them around for their faith generation with Holy Sites. If I somehow wind up with two nearby I might opt to capture one once it builds its district and then hold onto the other for faith.

Economy/Culture/Research

Nothing earth-shattering here, just try to maintain with the pack. Heading for theology early will be important as that would enable the Madrasa much earlier than the others will have universities available. I'll need to get a campus, preferably two, down by then. Getting up the worship building (MH/Wat) in key cities will also help, given the +10% boost to faith, culture and science. Science-wise I don't know that going relatively straight for Stirrups would be smart – I'd have the tech for Mamluks way before I had the production capacity to build them.

Lastly, no plan survives contact with the enemy, maps or barbs.

[RFS-81]

Do you think it's possible to reach Mercenaries before Stirrups? If yes, you can upgrade your chariots for only 90 gold. I think Sullla did that in PBEM1, but your civ has a science boost rather than a culture boost, so it might be different for you.

[suboptimal]

Do you think it's possible to reach Mercenaries before Stirrups? If yes, you can upgrade your chariots for only 90 gold. I think Sullla did that in PBEM1, but your civ has a science boost rather than a culture boost, so it might be different for you.

I'm inclined to think that Stirrups will be in well before Mercenaries as it seems culture production is harder to ramp up in the early game if your civ doesn't provide a means to more culture.

In PBEM 2 Oledavy had 4 turns to go in Stirrups and 8 turns left in Mercenaries, both boosted, in Turn 83 of PBEM 2.  Notably, Lafayette on that turn is producing 8.4 cogs and Hong Kong a few turns later is producing 9.4.  At those rates it's 18-22 turns to produce a knight/mamluk.  Woden is in a likewise position with his cities in the 7-9 production range.  However, the other three are one full civics tier behind and that's where'd I be without wonders or Thermopylae.

A few Heavy Chariots might be the way to go, if only because gold would accumulate faster than culture.  Alternatively if a science lead can be opened up apprenticeship could be grabbed early to get some more production online.   Based upon the number and types of forces in PBEM 2, getting even one or two on the map could make a big difference in military positioning.