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Mrrshans: Early POUNCING expansion strategy

INTRODUCTION

Recently I've been playing around with some openings as the Mrrshans on medium maps on impossible and I've found that rushing tier 2 weapons tech early on (within first 50 turns) is a viable and maybe even necessary strategy. 

The typical opening strategy is to focus on getting range and planetology techs for early expansion, and also focusing on factories and colony ships to execute this expansion.  This will typically, on a medium map with average luck, land a player with about 5 planets by about 2350, albeit with most of them still at the beginning stage of being built-up and without hardly any techs researched other than the bare-minimum of expansion techs. At about this time the AI starts to arm its colony ships and send armed escorts out, and it will start to probe whatever frontier worlds are within range with some small and medium laser fighters, or the occasional large cruiser. Anticipating this and dealing with it while also industrializing and getting research going is always my biggest problem with the Mrrshans.  I end up getting spread too thin, and I end up losing some of my frontier worlds, meaning that I would have been better off not even trying to colonize these frontier planets in the first place and spent the production on something else.  This is always really frustrating!

The typical expansionist opening strategy works better with races that have some sort of early eco or diplo bonus.  For example, with a race like the Klackons, you can have your frontier planets set up and defended a few turns earlier, which is often key.  I understand why players tend to perceive the Mrrshans as a subpar race.  The Mrrshan diplo penalties are particularly bad for the early expansionist strategy.  If you expand too quickly in pop early on as the Mrrshans, it is easy to get dogpiled, which can set you back in a practical sense or even cause you to outright lose the game due to bad luck with an early council vote.  

But what if we play to the Mrrshans' strengths?  So what if the Mrrshans don't get along with other races!  If you keep your population low enough, you won't be eligible for a council nomination in the first place!  But surely you cannot hope to go toe-to-toe with early AI fleets on impossible!  Well, sure, not if you play the typical expansion-oriented strategy!  But if you make it a priority, I think it can be done.  

THE STRATEGY

Making early warfare a priority means that you will have to redirect some resources from colony ship building to teching and building combat ships, which means, first of all, being more selective about which planets you try to colonize.  If you have safe backline worlds that don't require hardly any tech detour to obtain, then sure, go for it.  But when it comes to worlds on the frontier—that is any world between your initial two planets and where the AI is likely to be—the idea is to let the AI colonize them first and then POUNCE with your kitty paws and take it from them, saving you the cost of building a colony ship yourself.  After all, if you are going to have to fight the AI anyways (as is often the case with the Mrrshans), you might as well get something out of it.  

Note that this doesn't mean you have to go to war with every AI neighbor you meet.  Even if you don't plan on being in the running for the council vote, it's still probably best to limit these attacks of opportunity to one or two foes while trying to keep the peace with the others for as long as possible.  But I would say, when it doubt, fight it out.  If there is a particularly juicy frontier world that an AI has just claimed—a world right next to your homeworld that would normally be in your "1st expansion ring" if following a typical expansionist start—don't be afraid to POUNCE!   

This POUNCING strategy should ideally take place in two phases, with each phase taking advantage of two different ideal windows of opportunity for pouncing on a newly-colonized AI world:  
Phase 1.  right at the time of AI colonization, or 
Phase 2.  after factories and pop have been built up, but just before missile bases start accumulating.  

Phase 1:  the goal for this phase of aggressive expansion is to keep these planets depopulated so that it can be taken over by a small invasion force. If you are unlucky enough to not have any safe backline worlds, and if you are following the POUNCING strategy for expansion, then you absolutely need to take some planets in this manner in Phase 1 because two planets cannot reliably generate enough population to do a full-scale ground invasion of an AI world in Phase 2 (see below).  

The ideal execution for a Phase 1 POUNCING is to have ships that are already finished or close to being finished that can reach the new AI colony and gain air superiority before the enemy's population transports can reach it.  The AI will start to arm its colony ships and escort them to your frontier areas sometime between 2340 and 2350, so ideally you ought to aim to have a small fleet ready by then.  The idea is to shoot down the incoming reinforcements and keep the planet at 2 or 3 population for easy pickings from a small ground invasion that will follow immediately after.  (I got this idea from the AI, who has done this to me more times than I care to admit!)  Boom! Just like that you have yourself a new colony, except now you'll be able to defend it since the resources that you would have spent on a colony ship went into techs and combat ships.  Note that, if AI troop reinforcements do manage to scoot in before you can get your interdiction fleet there, it's not the end of the world.  Just bomb down some of that new population for a few turns until it is more manageable for a small invasion. There won't be any factories at this point anyways, so you are not wasting anything by doing this.  

Phase 2:  the goal for this phase of aggressive expansion is to capture the planet with many factories intact.  To do this, you'll need to already have 4 or 5 full-pop worlds, to have a realistic shot at pulling this off (so, your starting 2, plus a few others either settled in the backlines or acquired during phase 1).  And if you are surrounded by the Burathis, then skip this idea.  


The best time to execute this phase of aggressive expansion is right before the planet starts stockpiling missile bases.  You can keep an eye on an enemy planet's progress towards this and have at least a rough idea of how close they are to this by sending frequent scouting sorties to the planet. Once the enemy planet is about halfway industrialized, you have limited time.  For this phase, you should bring along some nuke bombers as well—enough to safely destroy 1 or 2 missile bases, in case those pop up at the last second en route.  Depending on how recently the AI has colonized some of the planets on your frontier, you should plan on being ready to roll with this force by about 2360 or 2370 at the latest. 

Note that this method will also require a full-scale ground invasion in addition to your air superiority fleet, meaning that you will have to pretty much empty your initial planets of pop to make this work—and that's assuming you have at least 4 planets from which to send the ground invasion. Any less than that, and it is probably not going to be feasible.  If worst comes to worst and you doubt your ability to win the ground invasion, you can always bomb down the enemy population and factories and revert to a belated Phase 1-type invasion.  It's better than nothing.  


THE EXECUTION OF THIS STRATEGY

So, if we are talking about being ready to execute Phase 1 aggressive expansions by about 2350 and Phase 2 aggressive expansions by about 2370, what techs can the Mrrshans realistically have researched by then?  Another question is, what techs are worth researching by then?  Consider that, if you are careful about taking advantage of the research interest mechanic, you should only have to pay about half of the listed price for each tech. (The theoretical maximum would be one third, but the discount will inevitably be diminished slightly by the need to seed the tech at the beginning and the need to go slightly over 100% into the percentages). 

First, I think shields II is worth investing in because the vast majority of what your ship will be facing early on is laser fighters, and shields II drops the expected damage of each hit from 2.5 to 0.75, which is a 70% reduction!  Compared to shields I, it is 1.5 vs. 0.75, or still a 50% damage reduction! You will be taking half the damage from most ships, which means twice the survivability. Shields II will cost 800 RP, or about 400 actual production if you research efficiently.  That will buy about half a cruiser.  I think having one cruiser that has twice the survivability, plus having shields II researched, is better than having one and a half cruisers without level 2 shields.  

Second, I think it is imperative to obtain a better beam weapon than either lasers or gatling lasers.  Those go obsolete so quickly on impossible. You've already seen the math on how bad they do against even class II shields.  Class III and IV shields, which will really nullify lasers completely, do not take that much longer for the AI to reach on impossible.  Plus, having to resort to heavy lasers is so inefficient.  So, I think it's imperative to speed through the first tier of weapons (hand lasers is best.  God help you if all you get is gatling lasers) and see if you have access to either neutron pellet guns or ion cannons in the second tier.  

In addition, you'll of course want waste cleanup tech as soon as possible (ideally seeding research for that on turn 1), and you'll need some sort of range tech.  Deep space scanners is also fabulous to have if you plan on having to war early.  Ships move so slow at warp 1 that a few more turns of early warning make all the difference!

So, by 2350, in addition to having the first two planets fully industrialized, I would shoot for having the following:

  • Deep Space Scanner (if available.  Otherwise, if not available, get ECM 1 since it is so dirt-cheap, or just ignore computer tech).  Don't research beyond this. 
  • II9 or Reduced waste 80% (Either one will help industrialization if obtained early, and it will help with space on ships).  It might be tempting to try to research beyond this if Duralloy is available in tier 2, but I really don't think that there is enough time to reach it by the time you'll need to be building ships. 
  • Class II deflectors.  Don't research beyond this.  
  • Terraforming +10 and/or Improved Eco Restoration (and/or controlled environment techs up through tier 2 if relevant.  Otherwise, don't research beyond this.)
  • Range 4 or 5.  Also, if you plan on executing any Phase 2 invasions, try to get either nuclear engines or inertial stabilizer by 2365 to give your nuke bombers 2 moves.  Maybe keep a trickle of research into this field regardless.  If you can get some fast fighters (with, for example, fusion drives) with NPGs or ion cannons, the Mrrshan +4 attack bonus will help them stay relevant for a LONG TIME.  The AI tends to pack wimpy battle computers until the mid-2400s, so these fast fighters will have free reign of the skies and be nigh indestructible for a good chunk of the middle-game—even without having to invest in additional computer, construction, or shield tech!
  • A tier-1 weapon tech (preferably hand lasers) AND neutron pellet guns or ion cannon (hope that you have a choice of 1 of these two...otherwise, heavy lasers it will have to be (ugh!)).  Also keep a trickle going into this for the long run to exploit the Mrrshan tech bonus in this field.  

If several safe backline planets are available, it might be worth delaying this slightly in order to colonize those.  But I would aim to have at least 1 of something like the following ship ready by 2350 to POUNCE on any reachable frontier planet that the AI might try to colonize:

THE "POUNCER"
  • Large Hull
  • Battle computer 1
  • Shields II
  • Retro engines, maneuver 1
  • 15-20 neutron pellet guns OR 12-15 ion cannons OR 6-8 heavy lasers (you see how important getting something better than lasers is!)
  • Battle scanner 

As the Mrrshans, this bad boy will have an attack level of 6, giving it a 100% hit chance against enemy larges, a 90% hit chance against enemy mediums, and an 80% hit chance against enemy smalls.  It will get the first strike on everything and, with its class II shields, it will shred through even large swarms of laser fighters like a hot knife through butter, taking no attrition unless met with 80+ fighters.  Even just one of these POUNCERS will require multiple large enemy cruisers to take it down.  But don't stop after building just one of these!  Because, sooner or later, the enemy WILL show up with multiple large cruisers, or even a huge dreadnought.  For this reason, the POUNCING strategy will require you to basically shut off research at this point (keep a trickle going into propulsion and weapons) and build nothing but POUNCERS, invasion population, and factories until all of your first-ring frontier planets are back under your control via either Phase 1 or Phase 2-type takeovers.  It might be about Year 2400 before these planets can mostly defend themselves.  Hopefully your trickle of research will have brought in tier 3 propulsion and weapons by this point, and if you did any Phase 2 conquests, hopefully that will have netted you some tech conquests.  

At this point, you might go back to researching as normal, or focus research on propulsion and weapons and get some tier 4 stuff from these fields (like, ideally, fusion drives and antimatter bombs) to prepare for a Phase 3 conquest (bombing out and taking over a fully-developed AI world with max missile bases).  The deciding factor will be how your ground combat compares to that of your AI targets.  You might also need to pay attention to the council votes once again if your Phase 1+2 conquests were particularly successful at expanding your empire and population into the top 2.  

TIMING

How on Earth can all of this be accomplished in the timeframe allowed?  Remember that, since you won't be taking the first initiative to colonize contested frontier worlds, you will save on the production that would be needed for that.  Also, the key to doing this all efficiently is to start seeding 1 tech at a time from turn 1.  You should start with tech fields that will give you an immediate economic bonus, then move to tech fields where you aim to have multiple tiers researched by 2350, then much later (maybe by 2325) seed any other tier-1 fields that you want finished in time for your first POUNCER around 2350.  Here's what your allocations each turn might look like:

Turn 1:  Build 3 additional scouts and seed planetology with 100% of remaining production, while also peeking into the other fields.  
Turn 2:  If Improved Eco is available, seed fully for 1 more turn.  Otherwise, reduce planetology to interest-trickle and seed construction tech with remainder. 
Turn 3:  Reduce construction tech to interest-trickle and seed weapons with remainder. 
Turn 4:  Reduce weapons to interest-trickle and seed propulsion with remainder.  
Turn 5:  Reduce propulsion to interest-trickle (planetology, construction, weapons, and propulsion all now at interest-trickle) and devote rest to factory construction. 
Turns 6-???:  Continue devoting an interest-trickle into the 4 fields and building factories with the remainder.  Continually draw-down factory allocations each turn to top-up the interest-trickle for the 4 fields until a field is in the percentages.  Once a field is in the percentages, reduce to a single tick and re-allocate to factory construction or other fields' interest-trickles as needed.  
...
Turn ~25:  Seed force fields 1 turn.
Turn ~26:  Reduce force fields to a trickle, and seed computer tech (if Deep Space Scanner is available).  Theoretically, a trickle is all that should be needed for the next ~20 turns to get force fields to pop in time for building the first POUNCER.  
Turn ~27:  Reduce computer tech to an interest-trickle.  Hopefully you have started researching tier 2 weapons by now so that you'll have a better beam weapon in time for your first POUNCER.  
...
Turn ~30:  Hopefully you have seeded a tier 2 propulsion tech by now if you have nuclear engines or inertial stabilizer available and plan on doing any Phase 2 invasions (which will require bombers.  And bombers are SO much better with 2 moves instead of 1!)  

With this painstaking technique, you will get a headstart on techs and reach them surprisingly quickly while still managing to industrialize almost as quickly as you would if you did nothing but build up factories first.  

Think of it this way:  research that benefits from the interest-trickle mechanic basically triples itself.  So, how long does it take production that is plowed into factories to triple itself?  After factoring in waste cleanup, factories pay for themselves after 20 turns.  But that is only how it takes them to "break even."  It will take another 40 turns, or 60 turns total, before that production plowed into the factory will have achieved the same tripling of itself that BCs get when they triple themselves with the research interest mechanic.  Of course, beyond that the factory will outperform tripled research in terms of payback.  But if you wanted to know the most efficient way to convert raw-BCs into effective BCs within the first 50 turns, then taking full advantage of the research tripling mechanic is the way to go.  

Note that, with Improved Eco Restoration, factories pay themselves back in 15 turns and triple themselves in 45 turns, which makes maxing factories first and then going full-bore into research more attractive.  But also consider that you have to start counting from when each factory is actually built. In other words, production used to build a factory on Turn 1 will have tripled itself by Turn 45, but production used to build a factory on Turn 15 will have tripled itself by Turn 60.  You can't just assume that, if you focus on maxing factories first with IER, then ALL of your factory production BCs will have tripled themselves by Turn 45.  That will only apply to the BCs plowed into factories on Turn 1.  

By contrast, BCs that go into the research interest mechanic triple themselves instantly.  That is the magic of the research interest mechanic in MoO1. Yes, it is micro-intensive, and I understand if remakes of MoO1 wanted to revamp it.  But it really did yield some elegant gameplay tradeoffs.  

RNG (LUCK) REQUIREMENTS FOR THIS STRATEGY

I do have to admit that, if you get absolute crap options for techs in the first few levels of weapons and propulsion, this strategy might not work.  

In the first 2 tiers of weapons, you need to hope that you can obtain either neutron pellet guns or ion cannons.  It will also suck if you only have Range 6 offered in Tier 2 of the propulsion tree...unless you only get Range 4 offered in Tier 1 and it turns out that you need at least Range 5 to reach any planet of value.  In any playthrough, you should be able to tell from early scouting and peeking into the tech fields to see whether you might need to ditch this POUNCER strategy and improvise something else....

A LET'S PLAY DEMONSTRATION OF THIS STRATEGY TO FOLLOW SHORTLY....
Reply

Interesting! I like the idea that playing to a race's strengths instead of trying to use the same plan every game would be viable.

I look forward to your report! And to finding out whether this strategy is generalizable. And to finding out if there are other races with similar situations, where they're not weak so much as misplayed.
EitB 25 - Perpentach
Occasional mapmaker

Reply

OK, I'll bite. I have a little time to write a response to this concept. As an overriding point, yes, this could potentially work out as a strategy for playing the Mrrshans. However, in the aggregate I don't think it's as strong as the standard strategy of focusing on peaceful expansion and factory construction in the early stages of the game. I'll go through Psillycyber's post and respond to some of the key points.

I would argue that this proposed strategy begins with a logical error. Psillycyber writes, "I end up getting spread too thin, and I end up losing some of my frontier worlds, meaning that I would have been better off not even trying to colonize these frontier worlds in the first place and spent the production on something else." While that can certainly happen, the issue here is less a problem with focusing on expansion and factory construction, and more of an issue with failing to understand which planets the player can push for with success and which ones the player can't push for. I don't find myself losing very many planets in the early game of Master of Orion, at least not planets that I was seriously expecting to colonize. If this is repeatedly happening, then it's a failure of understanding big picture goals and developing your empire accordingly. Unless the player rolls a horribly unfair map, this shouldn't be happening too often.

There's another mistaken assumption in this post: the cost of colony ships. Psillycyber repeatedly acts as though colony ships are a huge burden draining the player's resources in the early game. This is simply not true; colony ships are cheap in Master of Orion, much cheaper than settlers in the comparable Civilization games (at least in Civ4 and thereafter). A homeworld that's been maxed out, or even close to it, can produce colony ships in 4 turns, with no pausing of population growth during construction or loss of population when the colony ship completes. Once a colony ship lands, the colony can develop itself with minimal input from the rest of the empire. A small handful of population is enough to get them going, and that's all they need in the early game. I can't tell you how many times I've expected an AI to take a location away from me, sending a colony ship only because it's cheap to build and then leaving the new planet undefended beyond an unarmed scout, only to have peace continue for the 25 turns I need to build up factories. Then I've managed to add an entire planet to my territory at virtually no cost. In the early game, it's always cheaper and easier to colonize planets for yourself instead of leaving them empty and then trying to conquer them from the AI. Just the population cost of transports alone easily exceeds the cost of a colony ship. Invasions obviously have their place in this game and are powerful in their own right, but deliberately not colonizing planets with the intention of letting the AI take them and then fight a war to conquer them... well, it's complete insanity as far as I'm concerned. crazyeye

Psillycyber also seems to be advocating for deliberate warfare with the player's neighbors when playing as the Mrrshans. I also view that as folly; time is virtually always on the player's side in Master of Orion, and taking on the AI in the early game when they are at their strongest and the player is at his weakest doesn't make a lot of sense. The kitties in particular almost always find themselves in wars with other races. You should be prepared for those conflicts, but actively seek them out? That feels strongly counterproductive to me. The AI likes to sign early game cheese alliances with one another, which can quickly snowball one war declaration into many. The AI will almost never manage to conquer the player, and the Council is the overwhelmingly most likely way for the player to lose the game. Psillycyber suggests that the player deliberately avoid being first or second in population to avoid a Council loss, which is effectively admitting the weakness of this setup. Deliberately holding yourself to third place or lower inherently means that the player is overseeing a weak empire. It also means that it's impossible to win the game, since the player isn't even nominated in the vote. I'm dubious of any strategy that sells itself by advertising having a small population in a game where bigger = better in every way. It might very well be worthwhile to go to war over a key planet; I'm not suggesting that the player should never engage in warfare in the early game. However, deliberately leaving planets uncolonized with the intention of attacking the races who do colonize them is nuts. It's much, much easier to defend than to attack in Master of Orion. The diplomatic fallout and the difficulties of invading do not make this an attractive strategy.

There's also the question of how to spend early production in Master of Orion. I've noticed a weird fascination on this forum recently of not concentrating on factory construction, almost like building factories has become boring and a number of individuals want to be trendy and try something different. The hipster approach to Master of Orion, perhaps? smile There are strategic reasons to deviate from building factories, of course, like needing ships in crucial locations and researching key techs. However, there's a reason why building factories is the default tactic in this game, because they allow the player to spend their income on gaining more income, and this boosts the empire's growth curve more than anything else. Researching tech is the only other thing that has the same effect, and the tech tree is not fixed. What if your Planetology tree has Controlled Barren and nothing else in the first rung? That just happened to me in my last game. What is there's no Improved Industrial tech in the first three rungs of Construction tech? Psillycyber mentions at the very end of his post that this strategy doesn't work if "you get crap options for techs in the first few levels", which is a pretty gigantic flaw. I feel very strongly that building up each planet with factories ASAP is the best overall strategy in this game, and there needs to be a compelling reason to deviate from that general plan.

The tactical goal of this POUNCE strategy is to attack the AI and take their colonies away from them at an early date. Phase 1 is based on attacking right after the colony ship lands but before population transports arrive. Phase 1 makes absolutely no sense to me, because if the player is strong enough to maintain space superiority over a world, then why not simply colonize it yourself without needing to get into a war and send population transports? Remember, colony ships are cheap to build. If you can hold a world with space superiority, then you might as well have colonized it yourself, and if you can't, then an invasion is only going to backfire since the planet can't be held regardless. Phase 2 is based on attacking once factories are present but before missile bases are completed. For starters, what happens if the player get the timing wrong? It can be difficult to predict when the bases will be completed. Secondly, what if the AI happens to grab an early ground tech? You won't always have Hand Lasers in your tech tree, and the Humans or Klackons can pick up something like Personal Deflector Shield or Duralloy armor very quickly. Psillycyber says that this won't work against the Bulrathi at all, which is also kind of a drawback since there are only nine other races. Even assuming that this all works out, and the player has Hand Lasers against nothing for the AI to make it an even battle, what about the cost of sending population to invade? Sending 50m or 80m population is a massive cost in the early game, much MUCH more expensive than the colony ship that could have been sent instead. Psillycyber states that "you will have to pretty much empty your initial planets of pop to make this work", which is going to cause a horrible crimp in the empire's overall development curve. How long will it take for them to grow back again?

This cost is further magnified by the fact that the player hasn't been colonizing other worlds in this scenario. If I'm reading this correctly, it sounds like the player only has the starting two planets, with perhaps one or two others under development. (Another side note: what if your second planet is a crummy size 25 world or something like that? Where is the population coming from?) Then there's the logistical headache of trying to coordinate an invasion with warp 1 transports, something that I almost never do if I can avoid it. What if a random AI fleet shows up on the one turn that transports are arriving and kills them all? What if the player miscalculates and the transports arrive after missile bases are already present? There are a ton of things that can go wrong here. I'm seeing massive risks for dubious advantages.

Then there's the research requirements for this all to work as advertised. Psillycyber suggests picking up seven techs if I'm reading correctly, one in every field plus two in weapons, and to have them all finished by 2350. We'll leave aside the aforementioned problems caused by the variable tech tree, which can sink this strategy all by itself. Where exactly does the research come from to land all of these techs? Psillycyber also says to have the first two planets maxed out after 50 turns, and to have a Large ship that looks to cost roughly 700-800 BC completed, all in the first 50 turns. It sounds like the player won't have time to build much in the way of colony ships, so does that leave just the initial two colonies? 50 turns into the game? There's an included timeline that discusses maximizing trickle research, which sounds great and all, except that seeding that many techs and continuing to increase trickle spending on them requires a major slowdown in factory construction. Psillycyber states that this process "still manages to industrialize almost as quickly as you would if you did nothing but build up factories first", but that's simply not true. The outlined timeline has no factory construction taking place at all for the first five turns, and in order to keep researching with the full bonus amount, will require significantly more investment over the following turns. How long does it take for the homeworld to finally complete its factories under this setup? Thirty turns? Thirty-five turns? It's not maxing out in 2325 as it does under a normal opening, that's for sure. I value putting that early research into Propulsion to reach more planets, and Planetology because it increases the productivity of native population. Significantly slowing down factory construction to get earlier scanners or neutron pellet guns or whatever doesn't feel like a good tradeoff.

I also noticed another version of the penny-wise / pound-foolish advice to build only three scouts, for five scouts total. The logic is that six scouts have a high enough combined cost to begin imposing a maintenance cost on the homeworld, and by sticking with only five scouts that can be avoided. This is one of the silliest pieces of advice that I've heard; let's go through several reasons why. For starters, the maintenance cost from building more scouts is trivially small. It costs 1 BC in overhead on a planet making 55 BC in income at the start of the game. That's less than two percent, and the amount will quickly drop into irrelevancy as factories are constructed. Ten turns later, and the cost of those scouts is well below one percent. Second, the information that the scouts bring back from fanning out is well worth their cost. Having a full picture of the neighborhood on Turn 10 instead of Turn 20 is well worth the miniscule cost of the scouts. I like to hold off on opening research until the scouts come back, as it can heavily affect what range techs and Planetology techs the player needs to research. If you open the tech fields with few or no scout reports, you're making decisions blindly that are likely to be suboptimal. Finally, any trivial costs that the scouts might impose are more than outweighed by their strategic value. The AI always retreats unarmed ships from scouts, allowing the player to keep the AI from scouting worlds and sending colony ships. It doesn't matter if the AI doesn't have the tech to settle on them yet, if they can scout a world in the early game, they can invade with transports later. The starting scanners also can only see 3 parsecs and the default engines move at warp 1 speed, meaning that there isn't enough time to see incoming AI ships and move to block planets accordingly. You need to send the scouts ahead of time. The cost of an AI scouting and potentially claiming a whole planet is monumentally greater than the cost of the scouts themselves; this really is an example of cutting off one's nose to spite one's face. Remember that earlier quote, "I end up getting spread too thin, and I end up losing some of my frontier worlds"? Perhaps this is a reason why.

Seriously guys, stop trying to be too clever on this. Scouts are laughably cheap to build. Put one over any world that isn't deep in the backlines.

I also must take serious objection with some of the cost-benefit analysis math at the bottom of Psillycyber's post. It states that factories pay back their own cost after 20 turns, but that it takes another 40 turns for factories to have the same "tripling" effect of using the trickled research. For starters, Psillycyber acknowledges that beyond those 60 turns the factories will outperform research in terms of payback, which is pretty notable since most games last much longer than 60 turns. I think that pretty much settles this whole discussion instantly, as I have very few games that finish in 2400 or earlier, and the factories have long since paid their cost back many times over. But let's take just the tripling aspect of this argument for a moment. Yes, it's possible to convert 1 BC spent on research into 3 RP by manipulating the tech formula math. Psillycyber just stops the analysis here and sees this as a clear rationale to do all this early research, end of story. But that's not the important thing here; RP themselves have no inherent value. RP are simply a means to unlock technologies. It's the techs themselves that have value, and therefore the real question is what can be achieved with those technologies.

This is a critical distinction that proves to be highly dependent on context. Class II shields are completely pointless if my empire is at peace with everyone else for the first 150 turns of the game; Class II shields are also the single most important thing that I can get if I'm about to be attacked by 1000 laser fighters and I've managed to build a single missile base over my homeworld. I can triple my investment of BC into RP all day, and it still remains pointless if those research points are solely being used for weapons that I don't need because no one is at war with me. A better test of the utility of early research is how it speeds up the overall empire growth curve, and the fields that do that (Planetology, Propulsion, sometimes Construction) are the very fields that the "traditional" strategy emphasize in the early game. We aren't ignoring the other fields because we fail to understand the math behind how research works, we're ignoring them because even tripled BC going into Computers tech won't do as much to help development as non-tripled BC going into building factories. The whole POUNCE strategy appears to be based on taking massive slowdowns to the overall growth curve in order to fight for planets that could have been colonized naturally without a fight, and to invest in research because tripled research spending is somehow inherently valuable just because there's tripling taking place. I believe there's a fundamental misunderstanding here, a love of the mathematics underlying the research formula without understanding what needs to be prioritized in terms of big picture strategy.

To sum up then (and wow, this went on longer than expected). I think this would be an entertaining variant strategy to try out, and under the right circumstances, especially with poor local terrain, it could work out OK. As a general strategy though - definitely not. This strategy looks to be a high risk gambit that relies on a lot of things going right in order to be pulled off. It certainly can work, and I'll be interested to see what the sample game looks like. However, even for the Mrrshans the player would come out ahead in most circumstances under a more traditional strategy. There really is a reason why building factories and colony ships is the default tactic in the early game. It's hard to do better than spending your income to gain more income, and taking planets without a fight is a lot easier than invading and conquering them. cool
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I'm super interested in seeing Psillycyber play this one out and see how it works! But I agree with Sullla that (for instance) blindly seeding weapons on T4, with no new factories yet constructed is unlikely to put you ahead in the game. The timeline is off in some other ways as well; here are a few thoughts on the idea:

- Because the Mrrshans aren't Klackons, if you build 3 Scouts on the first turn of the game, you will be "seeding" Planetology tech on the same turn (and trying to open other fields) with a total of ... 0 RP. So let's say we build three scouts in 2300, and take the rest of the plan to start in 2301.

- Scout-building is situational. Note you can actually get six scouts on the board without paying any maintenance (under kyrub's patch; without the patch, you could get two scouts and three self-designed Newscouts - or 6 Newscouts later on after scrapping the original Scouts - maintenance-free) so maybe you build your sixth in 2301 alongside research under Psillycyber's plan. I don't like opening research this early though: If I find a Barren UR 50 at range 3 the turn after I selected IER instead of Controlled Barren, I'm going to be kicking myself. Although in fairness, if I find a Barren UR 50 at range 3, I've probably won the game regardless, so maybe I shouldn't worry about it too much!

- I don't agree with Sullla that you should always build enough scouts to cover every world; I prefer to play the map and compare the costs and needs of the actual situation. If you can get away with 6 scouts or less early on, it's definitely a good idea: Rounding artifacts mean that with two worlds, that seventh scout that claims to just cost 1BC per year actually tends to cost nearly 10%(!) of your empire's net post-clean-up production in the early game, when you really want all that production (and the 8 BC for the ship itself) going into ... well, hopefully factories, mostly. But there are definitely times when I want more than six scouts out there to cover the frontier, chase unarmed colships, and watch for possible enemies. Since the POUNCE strategy wants AIs to colonize worlds around it, skimping on scouts absolutely makes sense for it though! It's likely to be worth delaying buildig Scouts e.g. until after you've founded your second world, actually.

- Sullla is correct that the 3x argument for tech is missing the forest for the trees. As long as you use "trickle research," you're going to be getting the 3x bonus anyway. The only reason to start early is if you want to finish a tech early and/or spend less on the initial "seed." But let's look at what the latter really means. Suppose you wait to get your scout reports in and get some factories built, planning to seed IER with 40 RP around 2307. (Not an unreasonable version of a standard opening.) What if you decide to seed it early, to take maximum advantage of the 3x research bonus? That would mean (to get the tech around the same time) seeding it for say 14-16 RP (depending on how the game handles bonus rounding) in 2301 and trickling 1-2 RP per turn to wind up with the same 40 RP by the end of the same 2307. This saves you a total of ... 16 BC. (Or 17 if you start in 2300!) But you'll also have spent most of the 24 BC you did spend early, when they could have gone into factories, thereby starting their payback clock early. So by 2308, you realistically only come out ahead by about 10 BC. Now, that's not nothing! That's a whole early factory! But if waiting for actual intel about your surroundings before opening a tech isn't worth 10 BC to you ... why are you spending 24 BC building Scouts on turn 0 - an even earlier turn, when the 2.4 facs you get would be of even greater value? I'm not saying you shouldn't; I often (by no means always) do build a brace of three Scouts in 2300 myself - because information and flexibility are valuable (and difficult-to-evaluate) commodities. (And as mentioned below, if you immediately put those 10 BC into tech instead of factories, it doesn't turn into 30 RP. It turns into a slightly larger investment of which you eventually lack the economy to take full advantage.)

- As Sullla points out, the payback horizon of factories is only relevant when comparing to the payback horizon for whatever else you're doing. The latter is very hard to calculate for something like Hand Lasers, since they might net you an entire world in one way or another by completing early ... or might just sit around doing nothing for you for ages. If it isn't the difference between winning or losing a planet, the savings from early Hand Lasers itself are just a few points of population even if you do face (or initiate) significant ground combat early. Also, payback horizon is not the only factor to consider. Factories turn BCs now into BCs in the future - which has opportunity costs but also means you get your BCs back when you have more intel, better technology, and a larger investment in existing technologies. If you spend 4+ turns seeding techs in the first few turns of the game, you won't have enough production to keep up your "trickle" investment once the bulbs start filling up - which means you've not only delayed your factories but wasted initial (non-bonus) research when you could have gotten the tech in the same timeframe by seeding it less (or later) and thus advancing at "full" trickle (later or) more slowly. Remember that trickle research is a misnomer! It looks like a trickle at the beginning, but to take full advantage you have to keep increasing spending on each tech by 22.5% every turn. You can't keep that up for long if you over-spent on research early instead of building factories.

- If you turn spending down to a single click whenever a field hits the percentages, even assuming this still does keep trickling in 1RP, don't be surprised if it takes dozens of turns for the tech to complete. Sometimes you'll get lucky, but if you don't and slow/stop research on a tech before about 20% (in kyrub's patch; in the base game, this is misreported as "10%") you can't assume the tech will land in anything resembling a timely fashion.

- Ship design is situational too. Your Pouncer is a great design for many circumstances, but not all of them - especially if you lack NPGs. (Ion Cannons are expensive if you're trying to get them researched before 2350! And the chance of having neither gun is around 25%. This is a problem if you're building your entire gambit around them!) Worse, you'll be missing Hand Lasers almost half the time, and Hyper-V almost half of that. You should probably abort the gambit if you see Gats as the only first-rung Weapons tech (just under 25%) and with the Hyper-V to Ions road being longer than you'd like, and the need to fully research a first-ring tech before you even know if there are guns in your second rung, POUNCING is definitely looking to me like a giant gambit.

It looks like a fun and interesting gambit though! I'd love to see it played out in a game!
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Good points, Thrawn - but please refrain from posting any spoilers about Imperium 42 until closing day!
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Okay, I've gone ahead and started a playthrough.  Here is a video of my commentary on about the first 60 turns.  (Spoilers in the video and below).  

MoO1 - Mrrshan POUNCERS - Part 1

Also, I will attach the earliest auto-save I have (2306).  Sadly, I did not think to get a save of the 2300 starting position.  But you can parallel my play starting from there if you like.  The only irrevocable decisions I had made by that point were:

I had seeded Reduced waste 80 and Improved terraforming +10.  I was getting ready to seed Range 4, but I don't think I had yet.  Or maybe I had for one turn.  I forget off the top of my head.  As for where to send the starting colony ship, there was no choice in the matter.

As for Sullla's criticisms, I am starting to come around to the idea that aiming for a tier 2 weapon tech by 2350 is a bit overambitious.  It might even be unnecessary, depending on the opponent.  I've noticed that the Klackons like to stick to small and medium ships that don't tend to carry shields even if the Klackons have researched them, so enemy shields are not an issue for a long time.  You could probably stick with lasers until about 2400.  If the Meklar are your neighbors, on the other hand, you might need something better as early as 2350.  I'm sure that I've seen huge dreadnoughts with class IV shields by about 2375 from the Meklar before, which sucks if you are the target of said dreadnought.  

As for how much the early research set me back in this playthrough....

By about 2360 I had factories almost maxed (they were maxed to the current pop at my two starting worlds, and I just had a few more pop to grow after getting IT+20).  I had also built two large combat cruisers, a few laser fights, and I had recently colonized a 4th planet and had researched ECM 1, Reduced Waste 80%, IT+10, IT+20, Range 4, and Range 6 researched, along with initial investments put into Controlled Dead and Inertial Stabilizer.  It might be interesting to see how this compares with a factory-centric opening. In hindsight, I could have saved a lot of RP by going for Range 5 after Range 4 (range 4 was still the better deal to start with since it let me pounce on that ultra-rich minimal planet at just the right time). At the time, I thought I might be able to pounce on that size-65 ocean planet that is 6 parsecs down at the bottom, and I suppose if I don't mind war with the Silicoids that is still an option.


Attached Files
.gam   SAVE1.GAM (Size: 57.65 KB / Downloads: 2)
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Thanks, Thrawn. We're traditionally extremely cautious about spoilers around here.

Psillycyber: That sounds pretty neat! I'd love to see a more detailed description - and see how the rest of the game plays out!
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(June 29th, 2017, 18:51)thrawn Wrote:
(June 29th, 2017, 18:14)RefSteel Wrote: Good points, Thrawn - but please refrain from posting any spoilers about Imperium 42 until closing day!

I thought it wasn't really a spoiler but I deleted it.

I was hoping Barren UR 50 was the spoiler. lol

Why would you get T10 so early, Thrawn? Is it to boost population growth? Because getting more people on your planets seems most useful to me when you're already close to the factory maximum.
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(June 30th, 2017, 02:45)RFS-81 Wrote: I was hoping Barren UR 50 was the spoiler.

Heh - spoiler from at least two different much, much older Imperia, actually. We were spoiled in a different sense in some of those early games. Made for memorable events though! (And yes, that first one was Minimal - and yes, that second, when we were playing as the rocks - was a UR Tundra 75!)

As for whether there's anything like that in Imperium 42 though ... well, I guess there's only one way to find out!
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12 + 17 = 39? wink
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