Bottom tier unit costs

[Seravy]

I'm thinking about the bottom tier normal units and maybe the problem isn't that they are weak (they are supposed to be), but the price? The price is fair if you compare it to other units like halberdiers, but compare it to your production availability at the time these units actually are useful and...you get :

2 cavalry, or 3 swordsmen for the price of a Marketplace, Magic Market, 2.5 cavalry for a sawmill etc

suddenly not so hot investment, are they? But there is more, you don't automatically get them - you need a Smithy, or Smithy plus stables to build some. (Or smithy and sawmill for bowmen but everyone has the sawmill anyway)
And you better have an alchemist guild and a barracks too if you want them to do any real damage to anything so you're already looking at fighter's guild tier costs just on those two buildings - might as well go for halberdiers which are better than swordsmen even without barracks and alchemist...

So I wonder if a lower cost, taking into account these units get outdated fast, compete with basic buildings, and even require a fairly expensive (for early game) building infrastructure to use, would work better?

Something like
Swordsmen 15-20
Bowmen 20-25
Cavalry 25-30

Another big problem I see is the high cost of Alchemist Guilds - you absolutely need one to make these units useful and if you already invested 60+150 for the AG, you might as well do the 250 Fighter's Guild.
So maybe the AG should cost 80-100 as well - now it no longer produces power and still has a fairly high maintenance?


While these units are generally better in human hands than AI so this benefits humans only, the AI has their summoned creature advantage to prevent getting overwhelmed by them too easily, and overusing these does make you stay behind in economy.

[zitro1987]

I'm thinking about the bottom tier normal units and maybe the problem isn't that they are weak (they are supposed to be), but the price? The price is fair if you compare it to other units like halberdiers, but compare it to your production availability at the time these units actually are useful and...you get :

2 cavalry, or 3 swordsmen for the price of a Marketplace, Magic Market, 2.5 cavalry for a sawmill etc

suddenly not so hot investment, are they? But there is more, you don't automatically get them - you need a Smithy, or Smithy plus stables to build some. (Or smithy and sawmill for bowmen but everyone has the sawmill anyway)
And you better have an alchemist guild and a barracks too if you want them to do any real damage to anything so you're already looking at fighter's guild tier costs just on those two buildings - might as well go for halberdiers which are better than swordsmen even without barracks and alchemist...

So I wonder if a lower cost, taking into account these units get outdated fast, compete with basic buildings, and even require a fairly expensive (for early game) building infrastructure to use, would work better?

Something like
Swordsmen 15-20
Bowmen 20-25
Cavalry 25-30

Another big problem I see is the high cost of Alchemist Guilds - you absolutely need one to make these units useful and if you already invested 60+150 for the AG, you might as well do the 250 Fighter's Guild.
So maybe the AG should cost 80-100 as well - now it no longer produces power and still has a fairly high maintenance?


While these units are generally better in human hands than AI so this benefits humans only, the AI has their summoned creature advantage to prevent getting overwhelmed by them too easily, and overusing these does make you stay behind in economy.

I see  your point, but this is a risky balancing ordeal, as low low-tier units are known to be superior (niche draconian bowmen, or especially horsebowmen) and cavarly's high mobility make them MUCH superior to swordsmen.

I'd keep it safe with moderate costs and wouldn't drop cavalry below 40. I'd concentrate on allowing alchemist guild to be cheap.
*Swordsmen - 20 
*Bowmen - 25 or 30
*Cavalry - 45? They are quite good.

[namad]

I'm thinking about the bottom tier normal units and maybe the problem isn't that they are weak (they are supposed to be), but the price? The price is fair if you compare it to other units like halberdiers, but compare it to your production availability at the time these units actually are useful and...you get :

2 cavalry, or 3 swordsmen for the price of a Marketplace, Magic Market, 2.5 cavalry for a sawmill etc

suddenly not so hot investment, are they? But there is more, you don't automatically get them - you need a Smithy, or Smithy plus stables to build some. (Or smithy and sawmill for bowmen but everyone has the sawmill anyway)
And you better have an alchemist guild and a barracks too if you want them to do any real damage to anything so you're already looking at fighter's guild tier costs just on those two buildings - might as well go for halberdiers which are better than swordsmen even without barracks and alchemist...

So I wonder if a lower cost, taking into account these units get outdated fast, compete with basic buildings, and even require a fairly expensive (for early game) building infrastructure to use, would work better?

Something like
Swordsmen 15-20
Bowmen 20-25
Cavalry 25-30

Another big problem I see is the high cost of Alchemist Guilds - you absolutely need one to make these units useful and if you already invested 60+150 for the AG, you might as well do the 250 Fighter's Guild.
So maybe the AG should cost 80-100 as well - now it no longer produces power and still has a fairly high maintenance?


While these units are generally better in human hands than AI so this benefits humans only, the AI has their summoned creature advantage to prevent getting overwhelmed by them too easily, and overusing these does make you stay behind in economy.

I see  your point, but this is a risky balancing ordeal, as low low-tier units are known to be superior (niche draconian bowmen, or especially horsebowmen) and cavarly's high mobility make them MUCH superior to swordsmen.

I'd keep it safe with moderate costs and wouldn't drop cavalry below 40. I'd concentrate on allowing alchemist guild to be cheap.
*Swordsmen - 20 
*Bowmen - 25 or 30
*Cavalry - 45? They are quite good.

I agree with zitro, make swordsmen cheaper, and/or alchemist's guild. Then move from there, consider the other low tier units at another time?

[Kaiku]

Isn't it a problem that their minimum cost is and will always be 1 turn, which is too high no matter what the actual gold cost is? (spells get instant at some point so don't suffer from this).

[Seravy]

Not really, the extra production will carry over for whatever you build next.